01-07-2004 19:17									#91
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Well, as alex says, there might people join later, with other preferences.

	01-07-2004 19:21									#92
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playing later after all DARs have been posted?
that's ok in SP, but in MP?

oh well, the extra work for additional difficulty levels isn't too big i hope

	01-07-2004 19:25									#93
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DARs for some games might be posted from day 1. As mentioned in the first post, it's up to the players to be honest and not read them.

	01-07-2004 19:33									#94
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Perhaps the human players could select their own non-agricultural civs.

If I understand correctly, the point of the exercise is to manipulate the AI. It might be interesting to analyze how different civs go about accomplishing this.

Just a thought.

	01-07-2004 19:37									#95
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf oh well, the extra work for additional difficulty levels isn't too big i hope

If I preset civilizations, names (will be generic anyway) and turn order in the scenario properties, it's only four steps per game: set the difficulty level, choose "load scenario", hit "launch" and rename the just created autosave.

	01-07-2004 19:40									#96
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How would you guys like the turn order anyway? Human - Human - AI - AI - AI - AI - AI - AI? Or Human - AI - AI - AI - Human - AI - AI - AI perhaps?

	01-07-2004 19:47									#97
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I think the two humans first will be closest to SP, so we should do that unless there are reasons to separate them that I don't see.

	01-07-2004 19:52									#98
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Since this is about diplomacy with the AI civs, my second suggestion could be more fair, or else the second player would always have a chance to "overrule" the first before the AI gets the turn. I'm unsure about the consequences, though; it's more a gut feeling.

	01-07-2004 20:08									#99
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i vote for the second option.
the last player always sees the next AI's turns. with "Human - AI - AI - AI - Human - AI - AI - AI - barbarian", it's evenly matched

	01-07-2004 20:10									#100
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Aren't you guys sick of that over-used Agricultural trait yet? All post-C3C AU games have been with Agricultural civs. Let's play some less popular, but more or less equally powerful civs.

Well, AU501 wasn't with an Ag civ, but still I absolutely agree Alex. Let's play no Ag civs. I only suggested Sumeria as an offset to the Dutch. I think either both humans should be Ag or neither, since we all know how powerful the Ag trait is. Preferably neither, as it will make it a little harder against the AI.

So why don't we pick a couple of "out of the box" civs, like say England and Portugal on an archipelago map to see if their UU's are useful at all? Or if that feels too much like AU501, let's try something historical such as France vs Spain, or even better, some combination of Rome/Greece/Carthage, all of which have pretty nice AA units?

As to the other suggestion of each pairing picking their own civs, I strongly disagree. If we do that, we may as well all just go off and post our own tracking threads in the PBEM forum. As far as I am concerned, the whole point of AU is to learn through comparing playing styles and strategies based on the same civs and same map.

	01-07-2004 20:17									#101
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Aren't you guys sick of that over-used Agricultural trait yet? All post-C3C AU games have been with Agricultural civs. Let's play some less popular, but more or less equally powerful civs.

Other than the Power of Seafaring (then again, I did give you a 4-turn pump in that one...).

	01-07-2004 20:18									#102
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What about the Zulu and the Mongols? Same traits, comparably powerful UUs, almost never played, and...not Agricultural!

	01-07-2004 20:21									#103
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Aren't you guys sick of that over-used Agricultural trait yet?

Couldn't agree more. Let's make sure either both civs are ag or neither is ag. Prefer neither being ag.

	01-07-2004 21:03									#104
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No Ag civs!

	01-07-2004 21:06									#105
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I'd say to give expansionist civs to either both or none of the humans. This trait is powerful on a pangaea. Preferably no expansionists, so that the players are forced to heavily commit to exploration if they want to meet all the civilizations as soon as possible.

Given the restrictions of this course (no attacking AI cities), the Zulu and their pillaging Impi seem more powerful than the Monglols.

I like the idea of a historical confrontation. How about a European conflict with England against Scandinavia? The English player will have the better economy with their commercial trait versus the militaristic trait of the Vikings, and the MoW will rule the seas, but they will have to always be on the lookout for amphibious Berzerkers. The AI would be France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, and Russia. What do you think?

	01-07-2004 21:16									#106
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I personally think France v Scandinavia would be a better matchup, but the whole European theme is an interesting one.

	01-07-2004 21:55									#107
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Given the restrictions of this course (no attacking AI cities), the Zulu and their pillaging Impi seem more powerful than the Monglols.

Well, I was just trying to be original. You, on the other hand, are trying to get back to France again!

	02-07-2004 06:33									#108
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Hmmmm....I also think France vs Scandinavia would be better than England....but I also think Scandinavia is way overplayed.

I stick to my epic Rome vs Greece....both are commercial civs - let's try out the Commercial trait and see if we can convince ourselves that its not so sucky!

AI could be Carthage, Persia, Celts, Egypt, Hittites, Zulu, or even Babylon or the Byzantines.....maximum aggression....a real ancient age bust-up!

	02-07-2004 06:34									#109
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I'd go for the euro matchup england vs scandinavia. On a Pangea England isn't overpowered, arguably isn't very good, but Scandinavia won't be special really either later in the game.

One vote *for* Ag, though, primarily from someone who really does NOT play Ag much: it seems like, in this game, Ag and/or expansionist would go a long way to giving players a better chance against the AI. Given that you're not allowed to take AI cities, the only way to have a great chance is to found a TON of cities right off, and then at minimum the AI's taking over your cities (and thus you can retake them), if not just that you have a decent base of cities. I'd argue for one of them and not both, but if AI has these traits and we don't, it's going to hurt ... a lot ... when the AI has more cities to start with, AND the ability to take your cities...

Just my two cents. I'll play any civ happily. Just might lose ...

kwpulliam: I'm happy to play mod, if you want to. Would even play Monarch, to make Sir Ralph's job easier, and to make for easier to compare games (4 monarch, 4 emperor) ... hate being the odd one out, and the wimp at that. I'll play some SP games at that level to get used to it. (I play most of my MP games at monarch or emperor, but SP at regent.)

	02-07-2004 07:10									#110
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If you ask me, the Commercial trait is actually very good, especially with the new FP model. Even with the restrictions of this game: it allows you to use tighter city spacing and not suffer as much from OCN corruption.

Since on this map Industrious is going to be more useful than seafaring, and the Musketeer more useful than the Man-O-War, I think France would be a better choice than England on this map. England - Scandinavia might be more balanced.

Rome versus Greece might be interesting as well, although I would take Scientific over Militaristic any day in this type of game. Think of your power over the AI that your free advance gives...

	02-07-2004 07:12									#111
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If there's till room, I'll play too

(and you know from 502 to not give me the Celts )

Ooo. right - other info :

1) I'm in CST (GMT -6), and keep odballl hours but am usualy on in the evenings
2) as fast as we can send em back and forth; especially early on there's not much to do except click end turn
3) Nothing on my schedule for the next few mos that I know of
4) Game for either
5) Regent/Emperor

Last edited by Makahlua on 02-07-2004 at 07:21

	02-07-2004 08:12									#112
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Can we do one of two things, perhaps?

a. Alexman picks 3 or so combos of civs, we vote on them. Majority wins, or if no majority a runoff between top two.

b. Alexman picks 2 or more combos of civs, and each game chooses which combo. Since i suspect some people don't care, you can use them to have some play on each, thus allowing for comparisons still.

That said, rome/greece or england/scandinavia still sound great to me.

	02-07-2004 09:02									#113
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Voting is fine. But please, same civs for all games or it won't be nearly so interesting to compare.

	02-07-2004 10:01									#114
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Since the early game is about manipulating the AI and not likely to see much war, wouldn't it be better to look for matchups with late-era UUs? Something like Russia vs Turks (blitz+expansionist or attack of 8), or America vs Germany (expansionist+modern UU or scientific+industrial UU).

Also, since this is MP, it might be wise to take concurrent courses with different opponents. Someone is likely to drop out for whatever reason, and having two courses would mean their opponent would at least have another game to complete. I'd be willing to try my hand at designing a map as soon as I can find the time...

	02-07-2004 10:33									#115
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Rome versus Greece might be interesting as well, although I would take Scientific over Militaristic any day in this type of game. Think of your power over the AI that your free advance gives...

Hmmm... if you're able to make it to the next era before the AI does. I think Rome vs Greece is a pretty balanced matchup. More balanced than Scandinavia/England IMO. Maybe it would be a good idea to post a poll when we think we have two even civs and have people vote on which one they would take if given the choice. A relatively even poll result should show that we have two evenly matched civs.

Edit: Ooops didn't see the post above where someone suggested something similiar.

	02-07-2004 16:58									#116
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Sir R is reading the posts and my idea is to let him decide. The sooner we start the sooner Alexman can put me out of my misery

	02-07-2004 17:55									#117
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I would take Scientific over Militaristic any day in this type of game

So would I. In fact I'm surprised that militaristic civs are being considered given that we can't take AI cities and that attacking the other human won't likely occur until much later in the game.

In effect, the militralistic player has no benefit from the militaristic trait up until then - whereas the other player is getting additional commerce/science/production bonuses right from the start. Sure the militralistic player may attack or get attacked by the AI, but if he or she are not allowed to take their cities, then the benefit is only the better chance of a leader appearing, with which they could use to build an early FP or to save for an army when they attack the other human.

It seems to me that to keep things better balanced between the two human players, their civs should be only commercial, industrious, scientific, or seafaring.

Just my 3 pennies.

[edit: add religious into that trait list - I knew I'd forgotten something]

	02-07-2004 19:06									#118
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Scientific might be better but I'd imagine that half-price barracks would be useful much earlier than the commercial trait would be. Even if there's no fighting until later, the presence of a human means you have to be prepared. Commercial isn't important until you have a large number of cities or just large cities.

I think England-Scandinavia is balanced. I'm less certain about Rome-Greece. I'd take Greece.

quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Hmmm... if you're able to make it to the next era before the AI does.

On Emperor? If Sir Ralph gives us all a reasonable start, I was planning to. I'll bear in mind that you're not sure. Especially if that means facing a few upgraded legionaries.

Anyway, I'm disappearing for a couple of weeks as threatened and won't be able to take part in this discussion.

	02-07-2004 19:14									#119
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Pick the civs

	02-07-2004 19:42									#120
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Interested? Register here, stating:


Im interested


The times you can play your turns.

Evenings USA time, late evenings usually

How many turns per day you hope to play.

Generally one, but once or twice a week I would like to do a marathon session where the team would play multiple turns for however long both team members could be available for

Any time periods of planned vacation when you won’t be around

Third week of July and possibly a week in August

Whether you prefer stock or AU mod.

stock

The diffculty level you wish to play.

monarch or emporer