24-06-2004 22:46									#1
	Armies: Bad news Full PM-box? Change here!

Bad news folks.

It seams that armies are totaly bugged.

I tested Mil. Academy similar tweaked as in AU mod (freely generating of armies), and results are very bad.
AI will not move those armies from their starting position and would add only one unit to them.

So armies are pretty much useless to AI even if freely added.


As far as I can see, only fair thing to do it to nerf Mil. Academy so it doesn't allow building armies.

That way it will be a wonder similar to Pentagon in way that it will increase effectiveness of exsisting human armies, but will not allow easy non-leader generating armies.

	24-06-2004 22:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Update:
After some extra testing here is one weird thing.
While like I said before in test game there were several civs with dozen 1-unit armies siting and doint nothing, something stange happend later.

Two cives got one of their armies activated!
They were used as they are supposed to, while still having dozen other armies siting in Mil. Academy city.
I have no idea why it is.

Maybe that lucky army somehow got generated by leader?
Or it has something to do with railroads?
Or Pentagon?

I have no clue.

	24-06-2004 22:55									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes, the AI seems to keep a number of half-full Armies in their cities, but it uses them well after they get a certain number of them.

This has been known for a while, from mods that make the Palace spawn Armies.

And how did you come up with an update with new information to your first post just one minute later?

	24-06-2004 22:59									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I written first post in notepad several hours ago, but posted it just now.



I guess that Mil. Academy modif. needs to be reworked.



P.S.
I don't think it's tied to number of armies.
In my debug game, both Zulu and Byz activated one of their armies in similar times, while Byz have twice more armies in cities.

	25-06-2004 00:17									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I still have no idea what's the trigger for filling out armies.

Some observation.
In my test game, Zulus started filling all new armies regualry (with 3 non-full armies staying in MA city).
On the other hand Incas have dozen (13-14) on armies and never had a filled once.
As for Byz, they had one filled army and dozen (15-16) with just one unit. And when that full amry died thay filled a new one.

Also all MA cities are full of defensive units (and a few offensive too), which were all outside armies.

Last edited by player1 on 25-06-2004 at 00:53

	25-06-2004 02:31									#6
	Tired of ads?

Thanks player 1 for bringing this thread to my attention, as I am remiss in not visiting this fine forum. I connect the dots sometimes slowly, and habitually haunt the same-o, same-o. (good English eh).

I have the solution for AI use of armies. The picture of same is one of dozens I have (in my thread, AI Armies in Field, really), where the various AI's routinely field army after army with stacks up to five fully loaded armies (with offensive units) escorted by stacks of fast moving defensive units all coming my way or hitting another AI. I have observed the AI using all the different kinds of armies, (I have five now in my Mod). So seeing in play ten AI armies used in campaign time after time. All loaded nicely. AI utilizing different characterists, such as an Amphibious Army making landings, also using an Artilery Army to blast blockade ships and using armies with hidden nationality units to craftily attack my cities during peace. And of course just using them in stacks straight on.

The AI must have a plentiful supply of offensive units coming on board in or near the a capitol city or any city that builds a wonder that allows building armies without leaders. These cities with just such a wonder will be used to assemble good armies if, and only if there are offensive units nearby or coming on-line in the city that host armies. What this means in practical terms is having commonly AI built improvements, such as granaries, temples, arenas etc spitting out offensive units or fast moving defense units. A balance of both is a must. For the AI has a humor of ONLY sending out Armies when certain criteria are met. Namely, offensive units and preferring fast moving defensive units, both nearby or in the Army host city. This is because the AI stacks defensive units with Armies before they will send them out.

I hope this helps
Sincerely

P.S. I modded fast moving defensive units built by a common improvement and available to all CIV. That solves half the equation. Also dissable the 'pillage' trigger on ANY unit, including Armies themselves that you wish to load into an army or have the AI escort loaded armies. This is because this feature bogs down the AI thinking and use of said units, including armies.

As you know in modding we got to watch that 'bogging' down the AI's thinking!

Last edited by Antrine on 25-06-2004 at 02:55

	26-06-2004 18:51									#7
	Suffering from ads?

As far as I understand, without heavy moding, army generating buildings benefit more human player then AI, since majority of armies will stay in cities and do nothing.

I also noticed that such generated armies break normal limit of maximum number of armies allowed.

	26-06-2004 21:42									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So noted, and I agree completely. Heavy is the modding and some days I just wonder.... even though the game is playing great. However, I have so much catching up to do in the Text Files and some work in luxuries layout and the back end of the Tech Tree.

	27-06-2004 02:35									#9
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by player1 As far as I understand, without heavy moding, army generating buildings benefit more human player then AI, since majority of armies will stay in cities and do nothing. I also noticed that such generated armies break normal limit of maximum number of armies allowed.

Frankly, I didn't notice it my last game. By the time I had a serious war with the Iroquois and the American's (the survivors on my continent.) The MA had time to generate two or three armies. My spy report showed 3 American armies. One army had 3 infantry units in it and didn't leave the city it was on. On the other hand the presence of an army persuaded me to leave the city alone. I didn't see the other two armies. Since the American's had a few tanks (before the oil was got cut off) and a lot of Mech I was surprised not to see the armies.

The Iroquois armies were far more effective. After they declared war on me while I was still fighting the American. The 1st Iroquois army consisted of 2 tanks and infantry unit and marched protected by Mech Inf. toward one of my border cities. The 2nd army consisted of 2 tanks and Longbow (oh well) and did the same. If it wasn't for the presence of a line of barricade on my border I might have lost a city.

I ended up getting 4 GL from conquest (all but one after tanks) so the additional 3 armies from the Armies for the MA was helpful but not essential. The Americans got one GL in the middle ages and the Iroquois got none so having the MA produce armies even if they weren't used or filled with optimal units was good.

My MA was built in a city with a production capacity of ~70 so I could have pumped out an army every 6 or 7 after hoover, ~18 to 20 turns before building a factory.The other advantage of modding the MA like we did is it eliminates one less prebuild for the human player.

	27-06-2004 21:34									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well high number of armies to human by MA helps a lot since it opens an option for some heavy anti-AI strategies like funnel of doom/funnel of death (look civfanatics sid game thread by SirPleb).

MA generated armies (like moded in AU) benefit more human then AI since more then 80% (debug experience) of them will be inactive and filled with one unit. At least it's not so broken as original MA, which enables humans to pump them like mad.

So it all comes down to would you like AI to have any armies, if cost is to make human player even more powerful (although not as much as with original MA)?

	29-06-2004 04:48									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Well high number of armies to human by MA helps a lot since it opens an option for some heavy anti-AI strategies like funnel of doom/funnel of death (look civfanatics sid game thread by SirPleb). MA generated armies (like moded in AU) benefit more human then AI since more then 80% (debug experience) of them will be inactive and filled with one unit. At least it's not so broken as original MA, which enables humans to pump them like mad.

The way I look at virtually every aspect of CIV (except for the difficulties levels) hurts the AI.

We shouldn't allow the human to manually move settlers, pick production, do wonder pre-build, select tech other than the science advisor, use the luxury slider, build artillery etc.

My actual game experience was that the MA in some cases resulted in the AI building and using armies in a reasonably effective manner. This is a significant improvement from the unmodified game, where the AI using armies at all was relatively rare.

In my game, it is possible that if the Iroquois had declared war on me as soon as war broke out between American and I, (instead of after I had really crushed America) the result of the game may have been different.

	29-06-2004 16:34									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, as far as I've seen, after some "mystical" conditions are met, AI will load one of thier armies and start to use them effectively.

Unfortunately, what triggers those considtions is pretty much unknown. For example, I had games in which some civs never had any active armies, some other had 1 or 2 of them, and once it happend that Zulus activated all of thier armies exept first two.

So it all comes down to weighting pros and cost of army generating buildings.

Pros:
-Some AIs will get some active armies.
-It's better their original rules, when player will get as many armies as he wants with MA, while AI will get nothing

Cons:
-it breaks max number of armies cap
-Most AI armies still stay passive
-Human, on the other hand, gets all his bonus armies (from army generating building) at full potential, so effectively human still gets more armies this way

	30-06-2004 05:16									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Strollen there is one thing broken if carefully managed via modding works almost always in the AI's favor.

Wondering? 'Hidden Nationality' and 'Invisible'. The AI's can wage effective non-declared war taking cities etc. Whereas the human is hamstrung by not being able to reciprocate so far as concerns taking enemy cities during peace.

Remember though that effective 'modding' part!

	09-07-2004 01:51									#14
	Tired of ads?

I haven't yet read the DARs for AU 503, nor written my own, but the changes made in the AU Mod resulted in quite interesting AI use of Armies.

In fact, while at first I considered it a flaw, the AI consistently loaded Infantry on top of Knights and Cavs... although this limited movement to 2, it *dramatically* increased the power of its Armies.

In terms of the benefit to the AI versus humans? I think the MA approach is overall balancing, as pointed out above.

	09-07-2004 01:59									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well it's certanly better then original.

But there is still problem of having most of AI armies inactive.
(compared to human one, which will always be used properly)

	09-07-2004 03:45									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Interesting.
I run several more tests, now with moding MA exactly as in AU mods (exempt the cost of armies).
And as far as I've seen, there are much more active armies (around 70%-80% or so).

And that's the great difference compared to "armies per 15 turns with Palace" combo (maybe 10-20% active armies). What exaclty governs AI "activation" of armies is still unknown, but I think that AU mod did it better then I first anticipated.


Possibile theories:
-railroads?
-not too quick frequency of getting new armies (25 turns)?
-abudance of mobile units (like Cavalry or Knights)?
-low attack/high defense setup (so AI activates armies in order to break city defenses)?

	09-07-2004 05:55									#17
	Remove this text

'-abundance of mobile units (like Cavalry or Knights) coupled with railroads.'

That is my illustrious opinion !

You can increase frequency various ways as long the above conditions are met and still see more increased activity. My opinion oh and make sure also there are fast moving defensive units available, piles of them. It seems the AI favor coming out with them 'escorting' filled armies. I have seen 10-15 AI armies in same area more than once. And they are always escort to and from battle.

	09-07-2004 07:03									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah, without really examining the details, my anecdotal report would be that KAIs with many many many units seem to use Armies, and use them better. This is all just based on my playing of AU 503, but when I see 50 to 100 AI Tanks (YAY!) in action, it seems that AI Armies are in greater abundance. And later... 4xMA Armies!!!

I wept with joy, and then destroyed them.

[If any Firaxians are around, I *still* say you need to bring alexman on board!!]

	09-07-2004 12:03									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

about

quote: -low attack/high defense setup (so AI activates armies in order to break city defenses)?

theory

I've seen in a recent game that super KAI with had modern armor, never bothered with armies, while other AIs with were in Cavarlry/Inanftry phase used them often.

Also once weaker AIs which was on defensive and losing the war, never bothered with filling his 2 armies he got.

Just a theory.

	09-07-2004 16:13									#20
	Tired of ads?

Hmph

I run another test.
Now compared to last one (which had 40 cost armies, same as AU otherwise), this one fetures 400 cost armies and ability of MA to make armies better.

Now results are bad. Only 20-40% active armies.

I still need to test does it had something to do with Better Armies flag, or numerical cost of armies.

P.S.
Or maybe it's just a bad luck?

	10-07-2004 23:26									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=3136297&t=2106

An option you might want to consider. It gives the AI free armies while not giving the human any free armies, and it works on random maps.

There are some drawbacks with the starting techs, the human will no longer be able to get his default civ specific techs, he'd have to be assigned some, but it seems like it'd be worth the trade off.

Last edited by Action on 11-07-2004 at 00:48

	17-07-2004 21:18									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=118505

Some new discoveries about passive 1-unit filled armies.
And you are not going to like it.

It seams that some original Civ3 "legacy" code prevents filling those armies.

Appearently, Soren designed armies in such way that AI never adds unit in army that is slower then army itself.

That was fine in PtW and original Civ3.
Don't add warrior in army already filled with 2 horsemen.

But, in C3C, beacuse armies get +1 move and code didn't got changed it gives devastating effects.

Example1:
Lets say that AI added Archer into his first army.
Now army has movment of 2.
AI won't add new 1-move units into the army since army now has movment of 2.

So army stays passive unitl AI gets Horsemen or Knights.
When these get avaiable you get filled 1 archer, 2 horsemen/knight armies.

Example2:
Lets say that AI added Horsemen into his new army.
Now army has movment of 3.
AI won't add new Horse units into the army since army now has movment of 3.

So army stays passive unitl AI gets Cavarly.
And then you get army filled 1 horsmen, 2 Cavarly.

Example3:
AI adds Cavarly or Modern Armor into his new army.
It never gets filled since there are no units with movement of 4.

	17-07-2004 21:28									#23
	Got spare money?

So the final throuth arbout AI 1Infantry/3Cavarly armies.
AI adds offense flaged Inanftry into the army.
Army gets movement rate of 2, so no new infantrues will be added.
AI adds Cavalry to fill the army.

Or 1Tank/3MA or 1Tank/3Cavarly armies.
(same for 1knight/3Cavarly armies)
AI adds Tank into the army.
Army gets movement rate of 3, so no new Tanks will be added.
AI adds Cavalry or Modern Armor to fill the army.

	17-07-2004 21:32									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

In conclusion, it's not possibile to make AI have no some passive armies.
If first unit added into the army is slow, army will eventualy get filled.

But, if first unit added in the army is very fast, its possibile that it never gets filled.

P.S.
Giving back Mech. Infantry offense AI flag could help AI a little, since then, if such offense Mech. Infantry starts the army, it will eventualy get filled with Modern Armor.

	18-07-2004 01:48									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Great job figuring it out, player1!
Thanks!

	18-07-2004 02:08									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Player 1 good research. Interesting to see what happens when a 2nd company does an expansion pack. Breakaway did a pretty good job on C3C, but missing the code that prevents armies from being filled with the same speed units is a real bug.


That said Thesus and my experience in AU 503, and my experience in a random map with the AU mod for mil academy. The AI does use armies moderately effectively with the mod. Although it is clear that a fair number of AI armies are pretty useless. I guess if it puts in a Cav in an army that pretty much makes the army useless.

	21-07-2004 08:39									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

player1, you are correct, sir.

This seems to be a 3xMA+Tank Indian Army.

(Not to fear, folks, mine ain't 4xCavs... it's Tank+3xCavs. )

Attachment: au601-indian ma army.jpg
This has been downloaded 48 time(s).

	21-07-2004 08:43									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I like your city names

	21-07-2004 09:01									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, I was pretty worked up over this IC invasion...

	21-07-2004 09:09									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What'd they ever do to you?