 |
| |
|
|
Snowflake
|
 |
falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:37
|
|
You are exactly right. You know why he continues to cheat? Because he believed you are soft on him. And he was right, you have been soft. Quietly nudging and "almost caught" does nothing. If he doesn't face real consequence, he won't feel the need to stop.
He has not talked to me and tried to get the cheating dealt with quietly. It is unfair to accuse somebody of something that he didn't do. All he said in his PM, is that he is willing to change. When I have obtained his permission, I will post his PM here.
The two options you listed.
The first one, to go silent and let Engima keep on cheating. This has never been an option for me. For the exact reason you stated.
The second one, to disclose Engima's cheating and watch as the community throws him out.
It is only fair to disclose his cheating. But I will not watch as the community throws him out and then leave myself because of guilt. I'll stand by and help him to fight the bad habit.
Fighting a habit is hard. I have seen people trying to quit smoking. I have seen people trying to leave Poly (myself included). It is hard. Help is needed. Of course help means more work. Watching constantly is a heck lot of work. But that's what a CMN does. If one does not want that responsibility, he simply chooses not to be a CMN. Cheating is not Engima's specialty. In last ACDG we have had cheating accusations flying around. A CMN has to carry out his responsibility no matter if Engima is in the game or not. If the players of a game is proved to be trustworthy, it is acceptable that the CMN checks less often. And if Engima has proved that he cannot fight his bad habit, then he will receive the punishment that nobody wants to play with him. It is this clear cut. Where is any doubt?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
It is not the CMN's duty to check for cheating. Every turn I've checked took 30->50 minutes to check for cheating properly, while it took 10 minutes or less for a person to play. Why else did you think I spent so long gathering evidence.
You know I had serious thoughts about your decision making skills for a while there.
quote:
The second one, to disclose Engima's cheating and watch as the community throws him out. It is only fair to disclose his cheating. But I will not watch as the community throws him out and then leave myself because of guilt. I'll stand by and help him to fight the bad habit. |
I thought you were refusing to believe that they would attempt to kick him out.
Okay I'm in, but I think it will be a lost cause for multiple reasons. However, I don't mind trying for lost causes. Lets get a few things straight though, we're not doing Enigma a favour, we're not doing it because we're scared of him, we're not his friends at all (as it was our actions that got him into it), we not his parents either, and we're not doing it to rid ourselves of guilt.
Getting Enigma kicked out is a debt we have to repay to someone else.
I want you to look long and hard at why you're considering this and tell me the reasons for your decision is not for absoultion or to offset his angry.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snowflake
|
|
falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:37
|
|
I just talked to Geo. And I think I have misunderstood you, Kody. All you insisted to do, is that all of his cheatings need to be soughted out, before anything else. And I agree. It is for his own benefit.
All I'm asking, is to give him another chance, to prove himself. And I am willing to help him. I still consider myself as his friend.
I will fight for the understanding for him, fight for him the one and only chance. But if he blows it, or if the community rejects him, as you predicted, I have no way of doing anything to stop it. But I will be at peace with myself, that I have tried my best to help a friend.
Being a friend does not mean to let him gets anything he wants. Being a friend means to help him, when he needs it. And to stop him, when he runs toward a chasm.
I do things because I believe I should. If I am sure that it is a lost cause, then I will stop. But I will try my best even if there is only a little hope.
To answer your question. No, it is not because I am afraid. It is not because I want to offset his angry.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Enigma seems to be taking it fairly well, but only time will tell. The teams however are not taking it well at all.
I don't have clue what argument you're going to use. Maniac has already torn your other one to shreds.
quote:
Being a friend does not mean to let him gets anything he wants. Being a friend means to help him, when he needs it. And to stop him, when he runs toward a chasm.
|
I don't consider myself a friend of Enigma's anymore. Friends don't do what I did. I coldly went through every his PBEMs for many hours over 2 days knowing that what I was doing would get him kicked out of the community that he really loves. I'm not going to kid myself I did mainly for Enigma's benefit.
As for stopping people from making the wrong decisions. I don't believe in that. You can guide people, but you can't take away their right to make their own decisions no matter if it's wrong or not.
...
Do you know this is the first time I've been scared for a long time, I guess this is how you felt when Enigma sent that PM to you.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Go to the spartan private forum.
There's also another thread in the morgan forum that's something similar.
Then there's obstructor's leaving thread, which no doubt will prompt people to ask for Enigma's removal so they can get obstructor back.
Honghu, people call you a brilliant diplomat and you've got your work cut out for you.
Me, I'm just sometimes right in predictions on how people react.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
And hence you come to the delemia that I'm currently at.
Obstructor, and Chaunk have hung themselves against Enigma saying that if Enigma plays they don't.
Who really is more deserving? I actually think Enigma isn't. Who needs it more? I think Enigma needs it more. Where is the balance?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Very tired going to bed. I tried my best, but my arguements seem weak even to myself.
I do hope you succeed in acheiving something I didn't think was possible. For some reason it feels like I'm just jerking Enigma around by first giving people reasons to kick him out then lobbying for him to stay.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
 |
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
I am currently talking to GeoModder about it, what he's done, and the best way forward. He seems to be coming to the same conclusion as I am, that Enigma leaving, until he has shown he can not cheat, is the best thing. The entire game will be in disrepute among the teams if he stays, and even his team are saying that they understand that him going is the best option, for the game, their reputation, and him. He needs to know cheating has consequences.
Therefore, I am pretty sure I will ask Ming to remove him from the Data Angels list. I will PM him first, but all the other teams want it, the members of his team I've spoken to want it, and it's the only way to make sure the game is saved. Getting Chaunk and Obs back is also a big help to continued playing.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
|
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
Personally, I don't think that anyone could regain trust in him yet, and so I don't see him continuing straight away as an option. I believe banning him until he has shown he can play fair is the best option. However I can wait a day to release this, to let him calm down. I really hoped we could have done this before the information came out, people are quitting because of it, and I want them back ASAP, since the Morganites (with the turn) want Chaunk to play. Would it be OK to PM Chaunk with the decision, on the basis that he tells no-one whatsoever (I trust him) and then release it tomorrow, to Enigma first, then publically, so we can get on. That means Chaunk can play the turn, and we can carry on, until tomorrow.
Does that sounds ok?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
|
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
I have PMed him as follows:
quote:
Chaunk,
Because of your predicament, I have decided to inform you of this now, but I'd like it to be kept completely quiet for 24 hours, until it is publically released.
Enigma has cheated in the first turn of the DG, before it was replayed. We are 99% sure of that. He has cheated before, he has the means to cheat, he has stated to Kody that he does not, indeed cannot completely, stop cheating. The only course of action, therefore, is his removal from the game. I have discussed it with GeoModder, a prominent Angel, and he has agreed that it seems the best thing, for the game, and for his team.
He will be removed, until he has shown that he can play a PBEM without cheating. We're hoping he will start to change, after seeing the effects people have against it. However he will not be let back in until we're satisfied he is not likely to cheat. I doubt it will happen, but we leave the option open.
The reason I am delaying the annoucement for 24 hours is at HongHu's request. She and I have been worried about Enigma's mental state for a few months now. He is unstable. And he is taking quite a blow for the other PBEMs. If we told him, and took the decision, now, we believe he would flip, somewhat. We want to avoid that, and so ease him down. Therefore, I will PM him to inform him tomorrow, and then make it public. Until then, I am asking you to keep this firmly to yourself. I want to tell you, because of the situation with you leaving, and your teams desire for you to remain as the turn player.
Enigma will not take part in this DG, as I am determined that cheating will not be rewarded. It will take a lot to get people to trust him again, and until they do, he will remain out. A member who is not trusted will not be allowed back by the Angels. I hope this means you can stay, as you are a valuble member.
If you wish to discuss anything, feel free to PM myself 
- Drogue |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Honghu I don't think you're dealing with things properly. The way you are going about things makes Enigma feel better, but doesn't win other people over. Making someone feel better is not always helping them.
Your strong arguments on exactly what everyone should be doing are more detrimental than anything else. You talk with a lot of passion, but passion only works when you fight for a noble cause. Blackmailing other people about you leaving only drags yourself down.
Did you ask what Enigma wanted or are you deciding what he wants. Sadly in my opinion, in recent months Enigma has picked up the habit of saying what you want to hear. I actually liked him a lot better when he said exactly what he wanted and thought like back in the Hive.
The way you talk indicates that you are not listening to him rather have your own ideas of what Enigma wants. He has stated that he's going to quit his PBEMs and that he wanted to keep with the ACDG. He also strongly hinted that he didn't want to grovel for forgiveness, but would prefer to leave. While you lobby to keep Enigma in his PBEMs, calmly agrees with Drogue in kicking him from the ACDG, and also start saying that Enigma will write more detailed apologies.
Like I said earlier, "we're not doing him a favour", we're making decisions for him by intervening. Decisions that he will not learn to make himself or decisions that he might not want to be made for him. We are not his parents, where it is our duty to make decisions for him.
Also now you talk of hiding the ACDG decision from Enigma. This is unadvisable firstly because he will feel betrayed and you are betraying him. Secondly, you are interfering with the decisions he is making as you're hiding some of the information from him.
If you really want someone to learn, let them make their decisions, you give advice without restricting their opinions in their mind then you support them even if you know the decisions they have made are wrong. That was one thing I learnt and paid for dearly during my time trying to hold the Hive together.
You need to let him make his decisions without you blocking off certain paths or pushing him along the way you think is right.
quote:
To answer your question. No, it is not because I am afraid. It is not because I want to offset his angry. |
I just looked back you didn't answer the entire question, are you doing this because you feel responsibility for what you did. If you're trying to help him because of that, trust me when I say you'll be unable to help him. I suspect that this is the reason you have made all these mistakes to date.
I agreed to help you because I believe defending him to some degree is the right thing to do, someone at least needs to point out that Enigma is not a monster people make him out to be and give him a chance to make his own decision. I am scared of him as I know there is very little people cannot achieve if they put their mind to it and I feel responsibility for getting him into this mess. However, my fear of him is not going to make my decisions and I know my responsibility cannot be repaid in this time and place. My responsibility will probably not be even repaid to Enigma, but someone else that I know I can help.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
What I hate is how you have been forcing other people to make decisions which you think are right. You're doing it with me, with Enigma, and attempting to do it to other players too. If you want to treat other people as people you don't force them to do what you want.
*sigh* I realised I've been unfair.
Last edited by Kody on 08-07-2004 at 15:43
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
|
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by HongHu
I came here tonight to inform Drogue that I will be leaving ACDG when he announce that Enigma is going to be kicked out. |
I have to say I don't understand this, and would ask you to stay. I know you have been involved with helping Enigma, and feel somewhat bad about what happened, but this is not your fault. I am the Mod, it is my decision, and I take responsibility for it. I thank you for your advice, and the information you have gathered, as it has been invaluble. As to the other PBEMs, I do not know, and would leave that to you and Kody to sort out. As to the ACDG, you have behaved well, and have helped me greatly. It would be a shame to see you go.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Well I'm kindof calmed down now.
Sorry Drogue that you're caught in the middle of the mess we've made with respect to all the teams talking about the Enigma issue. I think you're doing very well considering the circumstances.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Snowflake
|
|
falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:37
|
|
Drogue, please understand this is not a blackmail as Kody indicated. I supported your decision, because this is the only way to save the ACDG.
However I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. No matter how bad one person has acted before, it does not given us right to mistreat him.
We have decided not to take action against Enigma at the first turn when we had suspected that he cheated because we didn't have enough evidence. This has not changed. We know that he later tried to play honestly in his replay turn and the third turn when he was the turn player. The only real accusation right now is that he might have tried played ahead in the second turn when Maki was the turn player. While we didn't give Maki any punishment for her offense, I do not feel Enigma should be receiving this uncomparably harsh punishment. Especially when it is clear that he has realized his mistakes, apologized openly about his past offenses in the pbems (which cannot be used against him in the Demo game), he has stated in public that he will never do it again, and he wants to learn how to work with people in the demo game, and he realizes that his teamate will not support cheaters. In my mind, the most suitable discipline action for Engima is not to allow him to act as a turn player, but allow him to stay in the team.
However, I also understand that some players have indicated that they will leave if Enigma does not leave. The ACDG is already filled with animosity. Keeping Engima will not be a wise decision. Therefore as the moderator, the only decision you can make is to banish Enigma to appease the public.
My leaving the ACDG is a protest against the unfairness of the sociaty and the collective consciousness. Plus I have my personal reasons that you will read in my last log.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
|
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
Actually, I disagree about mistreating him. Maki's cheating was accidental. Enigma's was intentional. I wasn't sure he cheated on that first turn. Looking at the evidence now, and the fact he has said to me that he would cheat if needs be, I am sure he did cheat on the first turn. That is why I will remove him from the game. The other reasons, about playing ahead when Maki was playing, are more minor, but still cheating.
He has cheated twice, in this game. I do not see how he can continue, even without the uproar from others. Maki accidentally commited a cheat while trying to do something legal. The differences are that it happened once, it was unintentional, I was informed of it, and she doesn't have a history of cheating like Enigma. That's a huge list of differences. If anyone else did what Enigma has done, I'd do exactly the same thing. Enigma is not beign treated differently for any reason, and moreover, I am not prepared to keep him in, even without the public uproar, because that would be favouritism.
I understand why you feel you should leave, and I know this isn't about blackmail at all, but about your personal feelings about it. Personally, I feel it isn't a good idea, because, IMHO, the decision to ban EN temporarily is the right thing to do, and the only thing without showing favouritism. However it is, of course, entirely your decision, and I will support whatever you wish to do.
Thank you again for the help and support with the DG.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drogue
|
|
Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:37
|
|
He has been given many warnings in the past. I have personally warned him twice, a few months ago, after I first heard of him cheating in a PBEM. He has a chance, and this is a temporary thing, until people, most importantly, I, regain trust in him.
He needs to be shown he is wrong, you are correct. This should do it. When he realises not to cheat, he will be welcomed back by me.
I have PMed him to explain my ruling to him, and PMed Rah to have him removed from the Angels forum, as well as posting on the main forum.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Something very strange.
Someone called "bryan" has attempted to join the CMNs. No posts, PMs disabled and he appears to have settings so you can't find him on the apolyton membership roster.
bryan 11-07-2004 Pending
I tracked him down by looking, assuming he joined apolyton the same day he signed up for the CMNs. Then I looked for membership numbers that were missing in the listings for that day.
Finally found him.
http://apolyton.net/forums/member.p...fo&userid=54633
Sent him the following email via the apolyton email feature.
quote:
Hello bryan,
I noticed you have attempted to join the CMNs in the ACDGIII at apolyton.net under the username "bryan". I would like to inform you that the CMNs are not a team, rather the administration branch of the game so you can't actually join that team.
It would be appreciated if you clicked the following link to clear the pending membership you are currently requesting.
http://apolyton.net/civgroups/?s=&a...p&civgroupid=61
If you are interested in joining one of the other teams you can post in this thread to express your interest. As you have never posted to the apolyton boards before it is unlikely for you to be accepted into one of the teams due to game security concerns until you do.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117584
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Kody
|
|
If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:37
|
|
Got an email back about my email.
quote:
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
dejonesktz@livingston.com
SMTP error from remote mailer after RCPT TO::
host mail2.livingston-europe.com [81.22.227.14]:
550 Sorry, This host does not relay mail
|
Looks like someone was hoping to hack into the CMNs private forum on the 11th this month... There really needs a facility to kick people.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37.
Apolyton Time is 00:37. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
07-07-2004 21:49
|