01-07-2004 03:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia btw, your brother acted correctly.

No, he didn't. He should have called it a day after people started to act aggressively.

But I know exactly what type of personality this is. I lived with one for 18 years.

	01-07-2004 03:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 1, 2, and 3 in no way warrant an arrest.

He was disturbing the peace. If he wants to protest marine recruiting drives at the mall, ask for a goddamned permit.

	01-07-2004 03:25									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia 1, 2, and 3 in no way warrant an arrest.

My brother did refuse to leave when the mall told him to. That is trespassing.

	01-07-2004 03:25									#34
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However if the cops violated their own code, then they acted improperly. This seems pretty common sense to me...

Brother instigated it in front of a marine. Given how marines are brainwashed, he really should not have expected the situation to end peacefully. He shouldn't act surprised that it didn't.
Conclusion: He's an idiot in this situation.

The police violated their own rules. When you violate your own rules, you just violated your own rules. No room for argument.
Conclusion: The cops acted improperly.

The marine, instead of choosing to have a nice and constructive debate attempted to resolve the situation using violence.
Conclusion: He's a marine.

Everyone has their own little piece in this situation.
The brother for instigating it.
The marine for responding to it improperly
The police for violating their own rules.

Sorry JohnT, but just because the brother didn't like the marines hardly means he's soley to blame.
Stop trying to politicise it.

	01-07-2004 03:25									#35
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OK, OK, was this a "discussion" or a "screaming match"? In a mall by the way. Were their voices loud? There's a difference between a spirited discussion and a potentially violent scene.

	01-07-2004 03:26									#36
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Its my understanding that the brother was being civil.
If not, then he might have violated the law and he's more of an idiot than before.

	01-07-2004 03:27									#37
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My brother never yelled until the police officer began to abuse him. And then he was yelling for his constitutional rights to be upheld.

The marines, however, did yell at him. A lot.

	01-07-2004 03:28									#38
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP So having an opinion and standing up for yourself is a bad thing? We live in a nation of laws, not one-man justice squads who make on the spot decisions on whether someone is a "trouble maker" Of course having an opinion and standing up for yourself necessarily makes one a trouble maker, which is the whole problem.

There is this thing called manners, in which the guiding principle is "to each in its proper place." His brother was ill-mannered, rude, and purposefully creating a scene with a crowd full of unwilling participants who, frankly, didn't want to deal with it.

So, yes, in certain situations "having an opinion and standing up for yourself is a bad thing."

	01-07-2004 03:30									#39
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quote: Stop trying to politicise it.

I'm not trying to politicize the situation, my reasoning about mannered behaviour stands regardless of the situation.

	01-07-2004 03:30									#40
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT There is this thing called manners, in which the guiding principle is "to each in its proper place." His brother was ill-mannered, rude, and purposefully creating a scene with a crowd full of unwilling participants who, frankly, didn't want to deal with it. So, yes, in certain situations "having an opinion and standing up for yourself is a bad thing."

Well according to Lorizael, who is the person actually telling the story, his brother wasn't the one who was ill-mannered and rude, it was the marine.

Why didn't the cop tackle the marine for picking a fight and making a scene? I mean, he wasn't even the recruiter, he was some guy who overheard the discussion and started yelling and making threats.

	01-07-2004 03:31									#41
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quote: No, he didn't. He should have called it a day after people started to act aggressively. But I know exactly what type of personality this is. I lived with one for 18 years.

stupididty isnt a reason for arrest

quote: He was disturbing the peace. If he wants to protest marine recruiting drives at the mall, ask for a goddamned permit.

dont need a permit if you plan to protest with less than 25 people. or do you want to make dissent also illegal?

quote: My brother did refuse to leave when the mall told him to. That is trespassing.

only if they present a letter of trespass. get a clue

	01-07-2004 03:32									#42
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They did, in about line 25.

	01-07-2004 03:33									#43
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quote: Well according to Lorizael, who is the person actually telling the story, his brother wasn't the one who was ill-mannered and rude, it was the marine.

His brother was the one who was ill-mannered and rude because he's the one who purposefully put himself in a situation where he was purposefully antagonizing people he didn't agree with in a social situation where such things are frowned upon.

Hell, he wouldn't get away with this crap in a bar, why should he get away with this behaviour at the mall?

	01-07-2004 03:33									#44
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"stupididty isnt a reason for arrest"

Never said it was. Doesn't mean it isn't "wrong"

	01-07-2004 03:33									#45
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quote: There is this thing called manners, in which the guiding principle is "to each in its proper place." His brother was ill-mannered, rude, and purposefully creating a scene with a crowd full of unwilling participants who, frankly, didn't want to deal with it. So, yes, in certain situations "having an opinion and standing up for yourself is a bad thing."

so he has the right to threaten him? NOPE wrong again. and maybe you think everyone should be IN THEIR PROPER PLACE, but you have no right to enforce your morality on others, and no right to tell them what their proper place is.

	01-07-2004 03:34									#46
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quote: His brother was the one who was ill-mannered and rude because he's the one who purposefully put himself in a situation where he was purposefully antagonizing people he didn't agree with in a social situation where such things are frowned upon. Hell, he wouldn't get away with this crap in a bar, why should he get away with this behaviour at the mall?

Ah, the good old flock argument. He disturbed the herd, put him to death.

	01-07-2004 03:34									#47
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LoA:

	01-07-2004 03:35									#48
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where i dont see it?

	01-07-2004 03:35									#49
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Have your brother (and everyone else reading this in the US) go to http://www.flexyourrights.org/

Check that out for good tips on dealing with the police. Also, I HIGHLY recommend getting their video, Busted.

I know the folks who run it, and its a great resource for getting out of police encounters unbloodied and still asserting your rights.

	01-07-2004 03:36									#50
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whats wrong johnt? do you have some sort of tick that makes your eyes roll up?

	01-07-2004 03:37									#51
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No, you deserve the here, John.

Would I have done what the brother did in that situation?

No.

Doesn't mean that having some ******* try to pick a fight with him and then having the cops wale on him was right.

	01-07-2004 03:37									#52
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The Libertarians here are kneejerkers too, but at least in a less-objectionable way.

	01-07-2004 03:39									#53
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Malls are private property. Your brother has no right to protest on private property. They can throw him out at their convenience and whim and your brother must go. If your brother doesn't go at that point, he is trespassing. If your brother wants to have a "discussion" with the Marines, then he needs to do it on public property.

	01-07-2004 03:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Well according to Lorizael, who is the person actually telling the story, his brother wasn't the one who was ill-mannered and rude, it was the marine. His brother was the one who was ill-mannered and rude because he's the one who purposefully put himself in a situation where he was purposefully antagonizing people he didn't agree with in a social situation where such things are frowned upon. Hell, he wouldn't get away with this crap in a bar, why should he get away with this behaviour at the mall?

I disagree. If the marines are recruiting, then there is nothing at all wrong with talking to them and being in opposition to it.

I mean, I run recruiting tables all the time, for my own organization. It is expected that not everyone who comes to the table is gonna agree with me. It comes with the territory. At times I get people who quite vocally disagree with what I have to say. That doesn't mean I reserve the right to get a cop to go Rodney King on them.

Furthermore, if you started an argument in a bar, you'd get your ass kicked, they wouldn't call the cops to go and kick your ass for them.

If the marine had followed him outside and punched him in the mouth, thats one thing. But the cop accosting him, well thats another matter entirely.

	01-07-2004 03:42									#55
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The idea that I'm "trying to enforce my beliefs upon others" is ludicrious, LoA. Manners evolved as a means for a naturally predatory species (us) to be able to get through the day without killing each other. When you violate that code, people react badly... at times, very badly.

Hell, go up to some guy with a girl on his arm and ask him if she's a good fvck. That's not illegal, nor immoral, but I have no doubt that you know what will happen.

Manners. To quote somebody: "Life is never too short that you can't take the time to be polite."

	01-07-2004 03:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Malls are private property. Your brother has no right to protest on private property. They can throw him out at their convenience and whim. If your brother wants to have a "discussion" with the Marines, then he needs to do it on public property.

That's not necessarily true. You can excercise free speech on private property that is a public gathering area as long as you don't obstruct business.

	01-07-2004 03:43									#57
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They did, in about line 25.

Not a letter.

	01-07-2004 03:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Libertarians here are kneejerkers too, but at least in a less-objectionable way.

?

	01-07-2004 03:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT The idea that I'm "trying to enforce my beliefs upon others" is ludicrious, LoA. Manners evolved as a means for a naturally predatory species (us) to be able to get through the day without killing each other. When you violate that code, people react badly... at times, very badly. Hell, go up to some guy with a girl on his arm and ask him if she's a good fvck. That's not illegal, nor immoral, but I have no doubt that you know what will happen. Manners. To quote somebody: "Life is never too short that you can't take the time to be polite."

But police officers are expected to be above base reactions. How can you possibly say, even if what my brother did was wrong, that what the police officer did was right?

	01-07-2004 03:45									#60
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My sympathies to you for your loss, Lorizael.

---

the rest of the story:
I say the cop and brother both get a slap on the wrist and then everyone buries the story.

The brother, for aggrivating the situation, and the cop for not putting the cuffs on right. Everyone wins.