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Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 02:59
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Civil Disobedience Gone Bad Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Phew. Okay. I'm going to tell you all an interesting story. I haven't had the concentration to sit down and write this whole thing out since it happened, so it's a little late. I don't really know why I'm telling you all this, but I thought Apolyton could offer... opinions.

So last Thursday my grandmother died. I was very sad. Everyone in my family was very sad. She lived a long life but it was still fairly sudden. Anyhow, this is not the point of the thread. It is merely the first piece to fall.

As a result of this unfortunate happening my brother came home to be at the funeral. In certain moods I would call this an unfortunate happening, too. My brother and I, you see, don't always get along perfectly. We're both a bit stubborn, both a bit rebellious. His rebellious tendencies need mentioning here.

On Saturday evening we saw Fahrenheit 9/11, which might not have been the best of ideas. We argued a good deal. He was particularly incensed by the tactics of the Marine Recruiters in Flint.

Sunday is my grandmother's wake. Originally I was scheduled to work that day. I told my boss I couldn't come in because of my grandmother's death. I sell cookies. I sell cookies in a mall.

Sunday comes along and there are a number of errands that need to be run before we can head on up to the wake. I need dress clothes, for example. So my two brothers, my bestfriend, and I all drive to the mall so that we can run our errands and I can get my formal wear. While walking through the mall we glimpse something very strange in the distance; before us we see a giant, inflatable marine. This is unexpected.

My brother is ecstatic. He rushes down there to go make a scene. The rest of us continue in to a store because we're in a hurry and need to get things done. Eventually my friend begins to wonder where my brother is and wanders out to go find him. My other brother and I continue to shop. After we have finished, we exit the store to see what has happened to the other two.

Around the giant marine is a large crowd of people standing in a circle. As we approach we see a large body on the ground. On top of that body is a police officer, who is in the process of handcuffing the person below him. The person below him is, of course, my brother.

Back a few minutes. My bestfriend wanders out to find my brother. She finds him having a fairly lively discussion with an ex-marine. The ex-marine had not liked the fact that my brother had come along and started criticizing the deceptive and discriminatory recruitment techniques employed by the Marines. He wanted to beat my brother up. He wanted my brother to come outside. My brother refused, of course, because he did not wish to fight. This was a non-violent protest.

Eventually the recruiters got tired of my brother and called mall security. Mall security arrives and tells him to leave. He refuses to do so until they present a letter of trespass. More time passes, more threats are made against my brother, more demands of departure, and a city police offer shows up.

The cop approaches my brother. My brother tells the officer that the ex-marine has physically threatened him and that he should be arrested. The cop reaches out and attempts to grab my brother. My brother pulls back and asks if he is being arrested. The officer says no, and then proceeds to tackle my brother. With the help of the security guard they subdue him and manage to place cuffs on him.

Place cuffs on him improperly. The officer only single locks them, which means that movement - any movement - causes them to tighten. This can cause serious damage to the person's wrists. It's also a violation of police procedures.

The police officer lifts my brother up and begins to escort him out of the mall. My brother demands he be told what he is being arrested for and that he receive a writ of habeas corpus. The police officer does not respond. My brother gets louder and louder and the officer still ignores him.

He was told that he was not being arrested. He was hand-cuffed. He is not being told what is happening to him. He considers this to be kidnapping and breaks free of the police officer.

The police officer grabs my brother and throws him to the ground, splitting his chin open and spilling blood everywhere. The cop then applies a 'control technique' which consists of placing his knee into my brother's neck and stuffing his face into the ground with his hand. My brother can barely breathe. He continues to demand to know what he is being arrested for. Eventually the officer relents and informs him that he is being arrested for trespassing and disorderly conduct.

At this point my brother calms down because the arrest is now lawful. But soon he notices that he is bleeding. He requests medical attention immediately. The officer does not listen to him. There is blood all over the place. It is obvious he is injured, but the officer simply continues to make sure my brother has trouble getting enough air to remain conscious.

Eventually my brother struggles away from the officer so that he can see where he is bleeding and how bad the injury is. The officer proceeds to pull out his taser and hold it to him, saying, "Watcha gonna do now?" over and over. My brother asks the officer if he is really going to taser an injured person lying on their back in handcuffs. The officer puts away the stun gun.

Now my brother asks if the police officer is a certified first responder, and the officer replies in the affirmative. My brother then tells the cop that he has an obligation to treat the wounded in this case. The cop says, "What am I going to do, stitch it?" And my brother replies that first responders are supposed to apply pressure to wounds that are bleeding. The cop refuses to do so but does call for an ambulance.

After awhile another police officer shows up and my brother is peacefully escorted outside, where a couple EMTs look at him but do not treat him. He is then taken to the hospital, treated perfectly by the staff there, and then moved to the central processing unit of the local jail.

He is charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and resisting arrest, and is released on his own recognizance.

Anyone actually read this whole thing?

Last edited by Lorizael on 01-07-2004 at 03:18

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:05 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Yes. Your brother sounds a lot like mine.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:06 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Anyone actually read this whole thing?


Yup. I f*cking hate cops.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:07 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Heh, when I posted I got this message to think about while I waited:

"Support your local police force -- steal!! "

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:07
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Technically right but always doing stupid things that get terribly wrongs things done to him?

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Heh, when I posted I got this message to think about while I waited:

"Support your local police force -- steal!! "


Oh that's amusing...

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:08 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Yes. But beyond that now (he's not even right any more).

Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
Settler

Aug 2005
time: 05:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:09 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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Your brother is an idiot

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:10
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Your brother should stop being such an a s s.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that: Your brother should stop being such a whiny a s s.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:10 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Some people can't ****ing help it, Tass. So back off.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:13 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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And you too, John.

You ever thought that some people have problems with controlling themselves? At least when his brother does it it doesn't manifest itself in the form of hurting other people. It manifests itself in not realising when is a good time to shut your mouth.

The cop in this story acted more antisocially.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:13
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FTP. god this **** makes me so mad grrrrrrrr

Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
Settler

Aug 2005
time: 05:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:13 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Your brother should stop being such an a s s.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that: Your brother should stop being such a whiny a s s.


Note: This message would be a message of support if your brother was protesting the "deceptive tactics" of the Kerry Campaign in front of an inflatable John Kerry

quote:
Some people can't ****ing help it, Tass. So back off.


No.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
And you too, John.

You ever thought that some people have problems with controlling themselves? At least when his brother does it it doesn't manifest itself in the form of hurting other people. It manifests itself in not realising when is a good time to shut your mouth.

The cop in this story acted more antisocially.


I don't care what his excuse was, his brother went and tried to pick a fight with a marine and then acted like a pansy when the chips came in.

And, no - the brother acted more unsocially. He started it.

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The cop in this story acted more antisocially.


Yes. Not only did the officer not carry out proper police procedures that exist to make sure everybody gets their constitutional rights, but the officer was unprofessional and needlessly violent.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:16 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Your brother should stop being such an a s s.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that: Your brother should stop being such a whiny a s s.


Sure he is obnoxious. But he has no legal obligation to be a nice guy. Whereas the police (in theory at least) aren't there to be armed bullies.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:16
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(Hell, I was going to edit this and put in Lorizeals quote as to counteract the X-post with Ozzy, but it actually applies to both of your responses. So to the both of you.)

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


I don't care what his excuse was, his brother went and tried to pick a fight with a marine and then acted like a pansy when the chips came in.

And, no - the brother acted more unsocially. He started it.


No no no. My brother attempted to engage the marines in discussion. An ex-marine, who had absolutely nothing to do with the recruitment, then came along and began to threaten my brother.

You may say that my brother shouldn't have been doing what he was doing, but he did not attempt to pick a fight. The marine who wanted to fight him, was trying to pick a fight.

Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
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Aug 2005
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:18 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


I don't care what his excuse was, his brother went and tried to pick a fight with a marine and then acted like a pansy when the chips came in.


Um, didn't the marine try to pick a fight with the brother?
The police acted improperly in this case (if they indeed violated their own code, then you can't really argue this, even if you don't like the brothers politics. Sorry JohnT ), and the marine was...well, being a marine I guess.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:19 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


I don't care what his excuse was, his brother went and tried to pick a fight with a marine and then acted like a pansy when the chips came in.


So you tell somebody that you don't agree with them and it means you've picked a fight. Good job, John. I'll be sure to drive down to your house now and kick the crap out of you in front of your family

NOTE: THIS IS SARCASM. I HAVE NO URGE TO HURT ANYBODY.

quote:
And, no - the brother acted more unsocially. He started it.


Talking smack and slapping somebody around are miles apart on the "wrong" scale.

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:20
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Cops usually beat the crap out of the instigators. Their job isn't to sit there and mediate an argument, only stop it. Yeah, the cop didn't use kid gloves on your brother, but that was probably because he was picking a fight with a Marine (who had an agreement with the mall to be there), in the front of a mall, in the middle of crowd of people. He was the antagonist in the situation and the cop wanted to resolve the scene.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:20
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You're brother purposefully went into a situation where

1. He knew it could cause trouble.
2. He knew that the people involved were going to get pissed at him
3. And acted in such a way that the police had to be called

The fault lies with your brother, not with the marines, not with the police. Your brother.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:21
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btw, your brother acted correctly.

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lorizael
An ex-marine, who had absolutely nothing to do with the recruitment, then came along and began to threaten my brother.


So wait, this was someone else unrelated to the recruitment booth ENTIRELY? Good god, the cop probably saw this and said oh ****, I'm going to have a major brawl on my hands.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:23
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1, 2, and 3 in no way warrant an arrest.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Um, didn't the marine try to pick a fight with the brother?
The police acted improperly in this case (if they indeed violated their own code, then you can't really argue this, even if you don't like the brothers politics. Sorry JohnT ), and the marine was...well, being a marine I guess.


Sorry, but the issue, imo, isn't the police, it's with a person who intentionally stepped over the line by purposefully denouncing the Marine Corps in front of a recruiting drive. Adults don't act like that... but asssholes do.

And yes, I purposely misspelled that.

Last edited by JohnT on 01-07-2004 at 03:48

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:23 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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The fault lies with an overaggressive cop and a Marine who decided to try to pick a fight with somebody who just wanted to talk (yeah, stupidly, wanted to talk).

I hope you guys teach your kids that violence is the best way to make somebody shut up when you don't like what they're saying.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:24
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thats not a crime

Lorizael is offline Lorizael

Prince
The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
You're brother purposefully went into a situation where

1. He knew it could cause trouble.
2. He knew that the people involved were going to get pissed at him
3. And acted in such a way that the police had to be called

The fault lies with your brother, not with the marines, not with the police. Your brother.


By that line of reasoning, any time the cops are required at a situation, they have the right to do whatever the **** they want to whoever the **** they want, regardless of their own protocols and the constitution.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 01-07-2004 03:24 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
You're brother purposefully went into a situation where

1. He knew it could cause trouble.
2. He knew that the people involved were going to get pissed at him
3. And acted in such a way that the police had to be called

The fault lies with your brother, not with the marines, not with the police. Your brother.


So having an opinion and standing up for yourself is a bad thing?

We live in a nation of laws, not one-man justice squads who make on the spot decisions on whether someone is a "trouble maker"

Of course having an opinion and standing up for yourself necessarily makes one a trouble maker, which is the whole problem.

 
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