01-07-2004 21:20									#61
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I think its hypocritical to have an embargo with Cuba, yet allow multinational corporations to exploit cheap Chinese labor.

If the US's goal is to get rid of "communist" Cuba, then allowing trade and the fruits of capitalism to enrich the nation sounds like a good thing. But then again, when the US has a chance to embargo a nation and let the people suffer, it never hesitates (see Iraq). Oh but wait, the embargos are successful in getting rid of dictators right? pffft.

This is hardly a Bush administration issue though. They are just keeping the status quo. Nothing new.

	01-07-2004 21:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sava This is hardly a Bush administration issue though. They are just keeping the status quo. Nothing new.

Well, actually the fact they have placed much more stringent rules in the ability of people to visit their family or give them money is new. Certainly not something new in terms of what the hardcore exiles with no family left in Cuba may have been pushing for, but new in terms of how much separation between families the government will enforce.

And I agree wht hipocracy between our treatment of Cuba vs China or Vietnam is absurd. The only big difference is that both China and Vietnam have begun eocnomic restrcuturings-but its hard for Cuba to do so if their largest natural market is closed to them and the uS makes doing business in Cuba difficult for third parties.

	01-07-2004 21:28									#63
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I thought you said "a good example?" And if the Great White Fraternal Socialist Brothers in the USSR hadn't subsidized Cuban sugar and banana production until the USSR itself went by the boards, then Cuban "development" would be sucking wind even worse than it is now.

And if the Yankee imperialists hadn't embargoed Cuba and subjected it to terrorist attacks who knows?

	01-07-2004 21:34									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi We'll stop picking on them when they return the property they nationalized.

I just got off an icq-chat with Fidel. He says he'll return the nationalized property when the US pay the american indians full compensation for all the treaties they have broken since 1776 or so.

	01-07-2004 21:36									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Half truth? What "half truth"? That the rider would have made it by if it were not for a president veto threat? How is that a half truth to say the president backs the hard line? The issue being that as a rider, passing the whole budget was more important than just that one measure. And maybe it was inserted as a rider cause as a bill on it's own it would face the opposition of the president and House leadership. Nice attempt at spinning the simple reality that the President is pushing a hard line and it isn't due to congress.

Hows about this half truth, what both houses voted to include as an amendment to that bill was to STOP FUNDING THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW, it did not

quote: Originally posted by GePap ease up on travel and trade restrictions with Cuba

Putting a contraversial rider on to an important appropriations bill is as old as government. If congress wished to actually normalize relations with Cuba they have the power to do so over any veto by the President.

quote: HELLO! I said any representative from sections with lots of Cubans, democrat or republican. Maybe if you read my posts better that would help form the start...

Back to your usual bullshit I see.

quote: Originally posted by GePap Congressional support for a tough embargo comes from only 2 sides- the extreme right jihadis in the Republican party, like Delay, and people who represent districts with large Cuban populations, be they republican or democrat.

to which I replied

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH IIRC I watched the senate committees debate about the current changes to the travel to Cuba, and I was surprised to see the number of Dems who supported it. If you have better hard evidence than my memory I'd be happy to look at it.

So I guess there's no evidence for your statement. Typical!

quote: Face it- you tired to make it look as if Bush were not the one in the driver seat on this but that it was the Congress who was behind this. You were wrong. Congress, or at least more than 50% of congresspeople would prefer a lessening of restrictions. It is Bush with the support of a minority of Congressmen, many with important posts, who back the hard line and Bush who with his power of presidential orders keep trying to tighten the noose.

My original comment may have been badly worded and reduced Bush's responsibility in this matter. Your statements, however, are the usual inflammatory rubbish. Until there is a vote to ease the embargo and normalize relations with Cuba without resorting to parlimentary tricks it is impossible to know where congress actually stands on this question.

	01-07-2004 21:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH My original comment may have been badly worded and reduced Bush's responsibility in this matter. Your statements, however, are the usual inflammatory rubbish. Until there is a vote to ease the embargo and normalize relations with Cuba without resorting to parlimentary tricks it is impossible to know where congress actually stands on this question.

fist of all.

Second, we know how congress feels. They want to lower the restrictions. But there is not enough support for full normalization, certainly not enough to override a known veto by Bush currently.

So if anyone is standing in the way of easing, if not fully ending restrictions, it's Bush right now. So if this policy continues and in fact the government is trying to go even further with it, we can certainly fully blame the amdin. Specially since these restrictions were not mandated by Congress but announced by the executive branch alone.

	01-07-2004 22:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I just got off an icq-chat with Fidel. He says he'll return the nationalized property when the US pay the american indians full compensation for all the treaties they have broken since 1776 or so.

Hey! We gave them the casinos...

	01-07-2004 22:41									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Second, we know how congress feels. They want to lower the restrictions.

Is that the royal 'we'?

Perhaps you're using your psychic powers again?

I will admit that I have not followed this issue closely, but you have provided no 'untainted' evidence that the majority of congress wishes to do as you say.

Personally, I think its nonsense to maintain the embargo. If we could bring down the Soviets without one I dont see why we cant do the same to the Cuban commies.

It seems to me that if the political will to do this was truly present in congress that they could force the issue. If Bush then vetoed a bipartisan bill with a clear message from the majority of congress, who would come out looking the worst?

	01-07-2004 22:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Is that the royal 'we'? Perhaps you're using your psychic powers again? I will admit that I have not followed this issue closely, but you have provided no 'untainted' evidence that the majority of congress wishes to do as you say.

No, I just look at the results of votes on emasures that might ease restrictions. There have been several, look them up if you care. For example, the measure to allow Cuban to buy food and medicines with cash.

quote: It seems to me that if the political will to do this was truly present in congress that they could force the issue. If Bush then vetoed a bipartisan bill with a clear message from the majority of congress, who would come out looking the worst?

One, as I said the republican house leadership is not supportive of such a measure, even if more and more rank and file reps. are- such a bill would not get far currently (ie, full normalization).

	01-07-2004 22:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Bush again. This crazy mother****er might even invade Cuba.

*Phones White House*

PLATO: Dick! I know how you can lock up that Cuban vote in Miami!

DICK: Hmmm...I'll talk to George when Delay gets done walking him...

	01-07-2004 23:29									#71
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quote: Originally posted by VJ I don't see a reason how Tiananmen was worse than Waco. We have no evidence how many people were killed in either case and both goverments are officially representing that it never happened.

this is a bullsh*t analogy

	02-07-2004 00:05									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi We'll stop picking on them when they return the property they nationalized.

So then does this mean that we should return Texas and all of the southwest back to Mexico before we can "fairly" demand Mexico to handle the illegal immigration problem?

	02-07-2004 00:07									#73
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No, because there was a treaty involved in that transaction .

	02-07-2004 00:07									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then does this mean that we should return Texas and all of the southwest back to Mexico before we can "fairly" demand Mexico to handle the illegal immigration problem?

Only if they then return all the land to Spain.

	02-07-2004 00:08									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, because there was a treaty involved in that transaction .

Some treaty -- it was forced on a dejected, utterly defeated Mexico that really had no choice.

	02-07-2004 00:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Only if they then return all the land to Spain.

So you see how ridiculous Shi's comment was since that is not how the real world works.

	02-07-2004 00:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No, I just look at the results of votes on emasures that might ease restrictions. There have been several, look them up if you care. For example, the measure to allow Cuban to buy food and medicines with cash.

So I did, and I agree that there is a trend in the house votes against the most harsh anti-cuba measures (2002-2004) . Note though, that the Rangel amendment of 2002 that sought to prohibit the use of any funding to implement, administer, or enforce the economic embargo of Cuba was rejected by a recorded vote of 204 ayes to 226 noes.

Quick analyses of the voting patterns across the USA on these matters suggests to me that your statement

quote: Congressional support for a tough embargo comes from only 2 sides- the extreme right jihadis in the Republican party, like Delay, and people who represent districts with large Cuban populations, be they republican or democrat.

is incorrect. Voting for and against these bills follows mostly party lines (ie Dem for easing, Repubs against easing). Votes against the party line occur across the entire USA quite frequently. It is true that in Florida, more Dems, as a percentage, tend to vote against easing pressure than in other states.

	02-07-2004 00:20									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Quick analyses of the voting patterns across the USA on these matters suggests to me that your statement is incorrect. Voting for and against these bills follows mostly party lines (ie Dem for easing, Repubs against easing). Votes against the party line occur across the entire USA quite frequently. It is true that in Florida, more Dems, as a percentage, tend to vote against easing pressure than in other states.

If you note, my statement mentions a "tough embargo" I have said several times there is not enough support to END the embargo, which is what rangel pushed for through defunding. Do please pay attention to my arguement- its a nice thing to do to keep the discussion coherent.

	02-07-2004 01:58									#79
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If you note, my statement mentions a "tough embargo" I have said several times there is not enough support to END the embargo, which is what rangel pushed for through defunding. Do please pay attention to my arguement- its a nice thing to do to keep the discussion coherent.

Ending the funding for the embargo no more ends the embargo than ending the funding for the enforcement of travel restrictions ends the illegality of travel to Cuba. Do try to keep up! Perhaps you should lay off the lunchtime martinis!

	02-07-2004 03:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then does this mean that we should return Texas and all of the southwest back to Mexico before we can "fairly" demand Mexico to handle the illegal immigration problem?

Poor analogy, MrFun, since most of the land in Cuba was taken from private citizens and businesses, not simply "redistricted" into Cuba. Besides, we annexed Texas when it was an independent nation, not part of Mexico.

	02-07-2004 04:52									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Poor analogy, MrFun, since most of the land in Cuba was taken from private citizens and businesses, not simply "redistricted" into Cuba. Besides, we annexed Texas when it was an independent nation, not part of Mexico.

First of all, other parts of the southwest was still part of Mexico.

Secondly, if Cuban leaders believed that foreign-origniating companies were sucking the lifeblood from their own country's well-being, then I can understand why they took those companies down.

	02-07-2004 05:43									#82
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I didn't mean to imply that other parts of the southwest weren't ceded by Mexico, just that Texas wasn't.

I don't think it was a lifeblood-sucking issue that led to the wholesale seizure of private property in Cuba. I think it was more the fact that the new government was communist. A lot of it was taken from Cuban nationals, as well, not just the easily-demonized foreign companies.

	02-07-2004 05:45									#83
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. . . . . and communists would view capitalist corporations as leeches in this regard. But yes, there were native corporations that suffered too.

	02-07-2004 06:07									#84
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Not just corporations. We had some Cuban exile families in the town where I grew up whose parents/grandparents (awkwardly worded, but I think you know what I mean) had simply owned "too much" land and had it seized.

My view on the corporate assets seized is that while the assets would be returned in a perfect world, it's a pipe dream, and owning in Cuba was a risk of doing business of which they were well aware. The return of land to the exiles is what I'd really like to see. Of course, that's only slightly less of a pipe dream after Castro's death, but should be at least partially possible.

	02-07-2004 06:18									#85
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quote: We'll stop picking on them when they return the property they nationalized.

The US property nationalized by Castro was stolen from the Cuban people through the corruption and tyranny of the Bautista regime.

	02-07-2004 06:37									#86
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Because the Cuban ex-patriots in Florida can give the state to either candidate so both parties want their support and get it by being tough on Cuba.

	02-07-2004 06:41									#87
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quote: The US property nationalized by Castro was stolen from the Cuban people through the corruption and tyranny of the Bautista regime.

And the war with Spain, but the Spanish stole it too

	02-07-2004 06:49									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Not just corporations. We had some Cuban exile families in the town where I grew up whose parents/grandparents (awkwardly worded, but I think you know what I mean) had simply owned "too much" land and had it seized. My view on the corporate assets seized is that while the assets would be returned in a perfect world, it's a pipe dream, and owning in Cuba was a risk of doing business of which they were well aware. The return of land to the exiles is what I'd really like to see. Of course, that's only slightly less of a pipe dream after Castro's death, but should be at least partially possible.

As Ramo pointed out, the corruption and exploitation with these corporations justified in the Cubans' eyes in seizing them.

	02-07-2004 07:22									#89
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That's quite a broad brush to paint with, and while certainly true in some cases, doesn't quite cover the breadth of the seizures.

	02-07-2004 07:54									#90
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I'm too lazy to read much of anything in this thread, but...

There is only one reason we still pick on Cuba, because all the ex-Cubans really, really hate Castro. And more importantly, because they all live in the hottest battleground state, namely Florida.

Cynical, but oh so true.