03-07-2004 22:52									#1
	GCA is calling for a replay of last turn, at UN Inflate your Upload Space

Lucky sent CGN a little letter about the fact that now thay they (CGN) are not able to make war on then AND that they had not had any battles over the last 5 turns, that they wanted Pease from CGN.

quote: Hi there, before you get the save, here is something else. According to the WW admin ruling we request that you accept the offered and accepted peace. All conditions of the admin ruling have been been met: a) With the loss of your last city and all remaining units on this continent you are in no position to continue this war in a "reasonable" fashion b) There has been no form of combat between our units for a lot more than 5 turns now (to a), note that we had a galley and units back at the old continent as well, however these small forces do NOT count as reasonable to continue a war, same as with your galleys (and probably the few units on board)) So, to repeat, according the admin ruling by mongoose a while ago, staying in a state of war simply for upkeeping war weariness and war unhappiness without actual or reasonable form of fighting is illegal. Thus you are required to accept our peace offer. Note though that this offer for peace will not be considered an actual state of peace in terms of diplomacy by the GCA, meaning we do not see that as any form of official treaty, only as a mean to counter an unwanted game mechanic. We hope you will abide to the admin ruling as the other teams have done as well. We reserve the right to request a replay of the turn should you decide not to follow this rule. Thank you. GCA And now, here is 710AD.

Micco sent him silence.....

Now, Lucky has posted this at the UN.

quote: Unfortunately the GCA has to halt this game until the resolution of an important issue. The team of CGN decided to blatantly ignore an admin ruling despite being fully informed once again (in case they forgot the rule). So now we have to inform mongoose about this foul play and wait for any form of reaction and justification from CGN itself, since they didnīt even deem it polite to reply to the request to abide to the admin ruling in any form whatsoever. We are very sorry for this delay and any inconvenience this may cause.

So, we wait. It would also seem that Mongoose is having computer Problems.

quote: [13:45] [miccofl> I havve heard nothing about mongoose201 getting his computer fixed (he hasn't sent on any turns here anyway) so it may be a while

	03-07-2004 22:59									#2
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This isn't our fight. I say we just keep quiet unless it gets really bad.

	03-07-2004 23:06									#3
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Lucky is purposely bending a rule almost to the breaking point, by saying that they didn;t fight any over the timeframe of the 5 turns, so thereby, he wants Peace Immediately, instead of after the 5 turns.

E_T

	03-07-2004 23:20									#4
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I just posted something at the UN to clear the issue up. I think it is quite obvious that CGN is not forced to make peace until at the most 750 AD since Micco was razed in 700 AD and thus that marks the point in which no combat is possible.

What I do suggest is that we try and stay out of the fight AND AVOID ANY INFLAMMATORY ATTITUDES as much as we can and just stick to state our interpretation of the admin ruling.

	04-07-2004 02:28									#5
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I agree with Master Zen. I think we should abstain from posting unless we absolutely need to. This is between GCA, CGN, and mongoose

Last edited by Kloreep on 04-07-2004 at 02:33

	04-07-2004 03:21									#6
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Lucky has followed up with this post

quote: Sorry not quite true. The final admin ruling had these two seperate requirements: #1 At least 5 turns must have passed after the latest attack/war action (like pillaging or such). #2 There must be no means/interest/effort to continue/restart the war on a broader/"reasonable" scale. Both requirements are met but CGN decided to ignore the rule nonetheless. The main issue is though, that they didnīt even bother to reply stating the justification for breaking a game rule. As said, mongoose is informed as well.

	04-07-2004 04:05									#7
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I agree with MZ too. If we are going to say something it would not be bad to stay as objective as possible. Still I don't see how Lucky's requirement #1 is met. Perhaps he's confusing at least with at the most?

Aidun

	04-07-2004 05:08									#8
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Well, it's obvious that he applies his own interpretation of the admin ruling as it suits him. I say we just leave those two at it and watch from the sidelines.

	04-07-2004 05:32									#9
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Just to be a devil's advocate - I agree that we can let things go and not get involved - but why should we let Lucky get away with this?

I mean we waited - 12-15 turns? for peace with GCA and lost a lot of production from WW due to Lucky's stubbornness at the end of our war - and GCA only had a galley with a pike on it (and then there was his landing it and demanding 5 more turns IIRC).

And most of all, we KNOW what is coming from Lucky when we strike ... more taunting, harassing and more juvenile behaviour from him...

	04-07-2004 05:37									#10
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If Lucky had willingly cooperated with eliminating our WW, I'd be for pressuring CGN to do the same. I view silence on the matter as the maximum acceptable method of giving some of the same back to them.

	04-07-2004 05:52									#11
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I got a bit different take on this.

I despise Lucky, and I think he's wrong to demand peace the turn the last city got razed (it should be 5 turns from when the last city fell), and I certainely don't think he's entitled to a replay turn (we sure didn't get any that I recall).


However, I think we do need to ask CGN privately and politely to get this resolved before GWT knows our invasion is coming. I'd hate for them to use this as a loophole to argue for a several turn replay that gives them more warning.....

	04-07-2004 08:47									#12
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We know Mongoose loathes to make rulings.
He prefers to just follow what the majority of teams want.

Can we just set up a quick poll. Get CFC & CGN to do the same.

We then go back to the UN, and ask for a vote on the interpretation of the ruling.

APO, CFC, CGN all vote the same ... Mongoose rules in our favour.

This all gets resolved in a couple of days.
Rather than a week of arguments.

CGN have no interest in playing this game... except for making life as miserable as possible for GCA & therefore for all of us.

	04-07-2004 09:49									#13
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In my view, CGN is completely in their rights to insist on not being forced into a seperate peace with GCA while both GWT and GCA are clearly allied beligerants in the war against them.

When conditions are met for peace with GWT, they should be forced to make peace with both. They should not be forced to make a seperate peace under any circumstances for as long as GWT and GCA are truly allied belligerants.

	04-07-2004 10:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos In my view, CGN is completely in their rights to insist on not being forced into a seperate peace with GCA while both GWT and GCA are clearly allied beligerants in the war against them. When conditions are met for peace with GWT, they should be forced to make peace with both. They should not be forced to make a seperate peace under any circumstances for as long as GWT and GCA are truly allied belligerants.

I think we should post what you said at the UN, except replace all instances of "belligerants" with goatf*ckers.

	04-07-2004 11:19									#15
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit I think we should post what you said at the UN, except replace all instances of "belligerants" with goatf*ckers.

:ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO:
:ROFLMAO:

E_T

	04-07-2004 12:30									#16
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Nice one WB.

	04-07-2004 20:59									#17
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I think H_E's point is a good one. Only post what Arnelos said in case CGN is losing the discussion. We don't have to start with a massive diplomatic assault, but increase pressure when increase is required.

Aidun

	04-07-2004 21:27									#18
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Mongoose responded in the Turn thread at the UN and Lucky made another response - basically saying that there is no room for negotiation and how CGN is in violation of the rules.

(Yes, I couldn't stop laughing at Lucky's two-faced comments either )

CGN should respond at the very least - Lucky is owed that much - though perhaps he won't like the response

	04-07-2004 22:22									#19
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Ah well

	04-07-2004 22:51									#20
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Lucky's latest ramblings mentioned in my last post:

quote: Iīve sent them PMs and mails, I even got a reply to one mail with the message, but that only stated that I attached the wrong save. I have sent them a message informing them that the game is halted as well. I know they read it. But so far they never replied with anything. Talk about sore losers. :s Once again, the requirements mentioned above are those given to us by Mongoose and both requirements are met. We are not interested in rediscussing the issue or interested in halting the game. However, we also will not accept the breaking of rules and being subject to unfair and illegal disadvantages, as it seems simply because one teams lacks the integrity and interest to continue playing in fair manner.

	04-07-2004 23:03									#21
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What is GWTs' view on this?

	05-07-2004 00:15									#22
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Probably GCA's.

	05-07-2004 00:46									#23
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You know, if we accepted Lucky's interpretation - either we or GWT would be forced to accept peace after our raid immediately after we had evacuated all of our land forces and disbanded our city on their continent.

(You think that GCA and GWT would accept that line of reasoning?.... )

	05-07-2004 01:38									#24
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From Mongoose's ruling, I think that they will be forced to accept peace.

	05-07-2004 02:00									#25
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bearing in mind what we are about to do to GWT, what would be more advantageous to us, though admittedly one extra turn won't create ww, will it?

	05-07-2004 05:33									#26
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The fact remains that is was a defacto alliance of GCA and GWT that went to war with CGN. GCA is now asking for peace from CGN even though the alliance and hostilities for and against their alliance was continued. 5 turns from when the stack outside of Micco was destroed; not just 5 turns from the turn Micco was disbanded.

If one realyy wanted to they could make a point that the last ruling by mongoose really only set a precedent that applie to the exact circumstances of the last situation that needed a ruling.

I remember that CFC's "hostile" actions stopped well before our own and that CFC did not get peace from GCA before we did. In fact, I think they got it only after we did, IIRC.

The fact that CGN refuses to speak to Lucky just makes the matter worse. But, I can understand their refusal to do so. Lucky just deserves a smack down in the worst possible way.

	05-07-2004 05:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe You know, if we accepted Lucky's interpretation - either we or GWT would be forced to accept peace after our raid immediately after we had evacuated all of our land forces and disbanded our city on their continent. (You think that GCA and GWT would accept that line of reasoning?.... )

No. The difference is we have Navigation. We are capable of launching further raids. GWT/GCA have every right not to accept peace.

	05-07-2004 06:03									#28
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But by the same token, Galleys can cross the oceans, just not with much of a chance. Thus military action could continue against CGN right now.

If Lucky gets what he wants here, then when the time comes that the raid has finished and we have pulled out, we should demand peace. Make sure we keep this thread in mind so that, when they start b*tching at us, we use Lucky's EXACT responses so far, cite the precedent we are now going through, and ask if we can at least be treated equally along with the goatf*ckers.

He can defend against what we say, but what leg to stand on does he have when he's defending against what HE SAID?

quote: Once again, the requirements mentioned above are those given to us by Mongoose and both requirements are met. We are not interested in rediscussing the issue or interested in halting the game. However, we also will not accept the breaking of rules and being subject to unfair and illegal disadvantages, as it seems simply because one teams lacks the integrity and interest to continue playing in fair manner.

	05-07-2004 06:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by rush No. The difference is we have Navigation. We are capable of launching further raids. GWT/GCA have every right not to accept peace.

By that same token we could then say that if we gave Navigation to CGN then they too would not have to give peace to either GCA or GWT.

I think that each case should be looked at for it's merits by the admin.

Is CGN reasonably able to conduct an attack against GWT or GCA at this time? No.

Were GCA and GWT acting in concert and thus an alliance against CGN? I'd say yes.

Has 5 turns past since the end of hostilities? No

Case closed.

	07-07-2004 05:50									#30
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Nice chat with CGN about the current situation WB.

Maybe someone who has mongoose's ear can let him know to slide over to CGN's forum for an update/explanation.