06-07-2004 06:57									#31
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quote: The US bishops Congress found the proportion of paedophile priests was on average the same as the general population i.e. about 1%. They were shocked - they thought it would be less.

Which needs to be put into perspective. Yes, they hoped that it would be less, but the fact that there are some who are needs another explanation other than the celibacy associated with the position. If 99% of the priests do not offend, then what is going on with the other 1%? Why do they offend, when the other 99% do not?

quote: But other societies manage it.

Which other societies are you thinking of AH?

	06-07-2004 07:00									#32
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quote: It makes no sense what so ever for priests to have to be celibate... They should be allowed to get married... and maybe the could understand some of the problems that the married couples they counsal go through.

That could be said about anything. How could they counsel a drug abuser when they themselves have not used drugs? You don't need to have experienced everything personally in order to offer advice.

The reason why they enforce celibacy is because they take Paul's admonishment seriously, that the one who is celibate can keep his full attention to God, whereas the one who is married finds his attentions divided.

	06-07-2004 07:03									#33
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I find it difficult to believe that 1% of the US population are pedophiles.

Oh, and talk about too busy to raise kids - how about the average American family? One or two parents, and two to four jobs, that's got to cut into the quality time.

	06-07-2004 07:04									#34
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quote: Also, catholic parishes many times have more people being served than protestant ones.

Which is one of the reasons they are looking for more young priests.

	06-07-2004 07:06									#35
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quote: G-Ds first commandment was to go get it on, so dont toss us into that group

in marriage.

Christians don't have the luxury of making up things out of whole cloth.

	06-07-2004 07:08									#36
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quote: I find it difficult to believe that 1% of the US population are pedophiles.

As do I. I expected more.

	06-07-2004 07:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I never understood the grounds of forcing priests to be celibate.

Celibacy was a fairly extreme reform designed to combat worldliness and materialism among the priests of the day. Hereditary bishoprics and philandering got too blatant, so the Vatican introduced celibacy.

	06-07-2004 07:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As do I. I expected more.

Pedophiles as in people who get aroused by the sight of naked fifteen-year-olds or pedophiles as in underage prostitute smugglers and rapists?

	06-07-2004 09:33									#39
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Well, lets look at it this way:

Poverty leads to higher rates of property crime.

Celibacy leads to higher rates of sex crime.

	06-07-2004 09:39									#40
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Well, what do I know.

The Catholic encyclopedia says precisely what I do.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of this world how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord without impediment. (I Cor., vii, 7-8 and 32-35.)

	06-07-2004 09:41									#41
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quote: Pedophiles as in people who get aroused by the sight of naked fifteen-year-olds or pedophiles as in underage prostitute smugglers and rapists?

I'm a conservative.

I start from the preposition that mankind is irredeemeably corrupt.

Ergo, I am pleasently surprised when I find them to be less corrupt than I thought.

	06-07-2004 09:56									#42
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Ah, that sounds like the way I manage my finances. I always keep finding more money in my bank account than I remember being put in.

	07-07-2004 03:56									#43
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Fiscal conservatism
Social conservatism

	07-07-2004 04:43									#44
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The main problem was the cover-up and re-assign policy in the RCC. It's one thing if regarding consenting adults, but when it involves minors it is criminal. In Prot denoms their has rarely been any attempt to shield priests or pastors from consequences of criminal wrongdoing.

IMHO bishops should be liable for prosecution in those cases where statute of limitation has not expired.

	07-07-2004 05:56									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I find it difficult to believe that 1% of the US population are pedophiles.

I'm not an expert but apparently that's the percentage of the population who have the tendency or impulse. Not all act on it.

1% of RC priests in the USA is a lot of people, something over 400 I believe.

They've introduced screening by trained psychologists now for seminarians.

	07-07-2004 05:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The reason why they enforce celibacy is because they take Paul's admonishment seriously, that the one who is celibate can keep his full attention to God, whereas the one who is married finds his attentions divided.

Exactly. Non-catholics don't seem to understand this. Its not banned because marriage or sex is bad, its so the priest can dedicate his mind (and body) completely to god, and to his parishoners.

Maybe its a problem for priests who aren't willing to commit to this, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. I think the church ought to be more selective in who it chooses to be ordained, but its tought now since the numbers of people entering the priesthood are at historic lows.

	07-07-2004 06:07									#47
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I suspect celibacy was introduced more to save money and to protect the church from scandal.

Catholic clergy are a pretty smart bunch where money is concerned.

	07-07-2004 07:47									#48
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Bankrupting your archdiocese through pedo lawsuits must be about the silliest fiduciary mistake imaginable.

I guess the church has never been up against the rapacious American legal system before.

	07-07-2004 07:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi As do I. I expected more.

Ehhh. Add in schizophrenics, neurotics, the depressed, drunks, druggies, the retarded, the crippled and the criminals and it gets to be a really, really heavy burden on the remaining healthy minority.

	07-07-2004 19:30									#50
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Another archdiocese bites the dust. Portland just went bankrupt.

	07-07-2004 19:50									#51
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Exactly. Non-catholics don't seem to understand this. Its not banned because marriage or sex is bad, its so the priest can dedicate his mind (and body) completely to god, and to his parishoners.

Hmmmm...

quote: The history of celibacy The tradition of celibacy seems to be exclusively Christian and to have been connected from the beginning with the virtue of chastity. It is evident that Jesus remained unmarried, but the reference to the apostle Peter's mother in law (Mark 1:30) indicates that not all of Jesus' followers were unmarried. The letters of St Paul make it clear that at least some of the early Church leaders (its bishops and priests) were married (Letter to Timothy 3:1-5). There was no law established in the first three or four centuries. There is evidence, however, that even at this time many priests were unmarried or withdrew from marriage after ordination. Further evidence suggests that the people did not always approve of married clergy, and there is reference to people being urged not to stop going to services just because they were being led by a married priest. The Council of Elvira in Spain (about 306 A.D.) forbade all bishops, priests and deacons from having wives. This practice then began to apply to the whole of the Western Church through various Papal decrees from Pope Damasus I onwards. Damasus regarded sexual intercourse as 'defilement' (a legal impurity rather than a sin, along the lines of the Old Testament Jewish laws - see Leviticus 15:18). The so-called 'Dark Ages', however, saw a decline in priestly morale and discipline as society itself fell into turmoil. About 1018, Pope Benedict VIII responded against this decline and brought in stronger laws to support clerical celibacy and made it impossible for the children of priests to inherit property (which had often been church property in the first place). This move was strongly supported by Pope Gregory VII (1073-1085) and his application of existing rules is regarded as the first effective enforcement of clerical celibacy. The Second Lateran Council in 1139 seems to provide the first written law that made it impossible for a cleric to get married. Later, after the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century, the Council of Trent (a meeting of the bishops of the Church, held in North Italy) reaffirmed the tradition of celibacy in 1563. Yet, despite arguments from some of the bishops present, the Council said that it was not a law that came from God but a Church tradition that could be changed. It said, too, that the Church's position on celibacy in no way minimised its high regard for marriage: the two callings were quite distinct and had their own distinctive demands.

It was banned for many different reasons... Many historians say the most important reason was based in the middle ages, where the second son was always sent to the priesthood to avoid any problems with the inheritance of the first son and his family. By making it against the rules for them to inherite land, and not allowing them to get married and have "legal" children, the first sons rights were protected. This whole "so they can dedicate their minds and body to god" stuff is just a bunch of after the fact crap

	07-07-2004 19:53									#52
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No it's not, Ming. In part it's an instance of the influence that Greek Platonist philosophy had on early Xtian thinkers.

In fact if they had read Plato properly they would have seen that he recommended that they stop messing about with boys.

	07-07-2004 19:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No it's not, Ming. In part it's an instance of the influence that Greek Platonist philosophy had on early Xtian thinkers.

There are many different opinions on the subject

I just wanted to point out the fact that one... This didn't come from Jesus... and was not in fact something done from the beginning of the church. The rules have varied during the early period of the church. And second, argue against the "body and soul" comment.

	07-07-2004 20:06									#54
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Fair enough.

	07-07-2004 20:14									#55
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quote: I just wanted to point out the fact that one... This didn't come from Jesus... and was not in fact something done from the beginning of the church. The rules have varied during the early period of the church. And second, argue against the "body and soul" comment.

You are correct that the rule didn't come from the early church (well, 306 AD is pretty early church), but the tradition did, as BK pointed out. It's not something set in stone (married priest converts to catholicism can stay married in the priesthood, after all). The rule can change, but if you know the church at all, you can guess that the tradition won't change. You aren't going to have a bunch of married catholic priests running around. Just not going to happen.

	07-07-2004 20:24									#56
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It became a big issue for these reasons, IMO:

1) Power/Trust.

2) Access. Lots of little kids around.

3) The coverups. Church hierarchy, taboo, dislike of scandal, and the forgiveness over punishment thing.

1+2 probably = more of those with the urges actually give in to them, since they actually have the opportunity.

I might have a thing for supermodels, see. But I'm an average joe, and supermodels aren't abundant in my life. But if I were a rock star... perhaps I'd be nailing supermodels left and right and not buying a ring for my current girlfriend? I dunno, since I've not been in that situation. But it seems plausible to me that if you have a certain urge and are presented with the opportunity to satisfy that desire, you are more likely to do it than someone in a less opportune position. [disclaimer]Obviously, wanting supermodels =! paedophilia. Duh.[/disclaimer]

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 07-07-2004 at 20:34

	07-07-2004 20:35									#57
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quote: It was banned for many different reasons... Many historians say the most important reason was based in the middle ages, where the second son was always sent to the priesthood to avoid any problems with the inheritance of the first son and his family. By making it against the rules for them to inherite land, and not allowing them to get married and have "legal" children, the first sons rights were protected. This whole "so they can dedicate their minds and body to god" stuff is just a bunch of after the fact crap

In the end, the blame is always on The Man.

	08-07-2004 04:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Another archdiocese bites the dust. Portland just went bankrupt.

I hear they are setting up catacombs

	08-07-2004 05:58									#59
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quote: Non-catholics don't seem to understand this.

JCC:

High praise indeed.

	08-07-2004 06:00									#60
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quote: In Prot denoms their has rarely been any attempt to shield priests or pastors from consequences of criminal wrongdoing.

Yeah, but ordination works differently. In the Catholic church, one cannot defrock a priest. That's the biggest reason for the treatment and relocation rather than expulsion.