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and i'm not suggesting that the free version would be full of pop-ups 
so, since someone suggested in another thread, how much would you pay for a year of access to apolyton without ads?
<u>dislaimer: i have no clue if and how this could be achievable with our current structure</u>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited March 12, 2001).]</font>
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:13
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I'd be willing to pay up to about 50 US dollars a year. Maybe more if CIV III is good or it was critical to the survival of the site.
But, my fear would be that charges would make quite a few of the younger posters quit due to economic reasons. And more importantly, fewer new members, since they wouldn't get a chance to browse and get sucked into the community so they wouldn't realize the value. And variety is what makes this site so popular. (and content of course)
I would suggest not making it mandatory and asking for sponsers. I believe that the people that could afford it would, and those that can't wouldn't lose access to such a wonderful site. This way, you wouldn't have to worry about the technical aspects.
If times get even tighter, please ask for donations first. You might be surprised at how many people would come through. But Please, don't make it mandatory.
RAH
I could see it now, Civ II multiplayer, sponsered by the Ferrets. 
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by rah on 03-12-2001 09:22 AM</font>
But, my fear would be that charges would make quite a few of the younger posters quit due to economic reasons
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>oh, i'm not suggesting that the access would be limited only to paying members.
i'm just asking, "how much would you pay to not see the ads"(that would be the basic stuff, perhaps the "package" could include more than that). i'm not suggesting to excluse those who will say "0"...
as for the donations thing, if you give me two visions of the future, in which one is that lots of people are paying small amount and get something back(beyond the existance of the site) and the other is that few people are paying many more money to keep something alive, i prefer the first...
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The problem with a fee is that it changes the position of everyone from "viewers" to "customers". Once you've paid your fee, you will be placing a demand on the service in return. If you were banned of the forums, for example, would you get your fee back?
I still favour the donations/shareware model.
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An increase in the post count of one for every unique click-through! You never need tell the advertisers...
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henrik, see the bolded text two posts above...
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DaveV
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USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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To answer the orginal question (what was it again?), I wouldn't pay much to get rid of the ads, since they don't really bother me very much. But if Apolyton were in danger of closing down, I'd open my wallet quickly.
Mark and Dan - here's an idea. In the US, public radio and television stations stage periodic pledge drives. They pre-empt their normal programming with long sermons about how much they're paying for their programming, and all you freeloaders who are enjoying it for nothing should feel pretty darn guilty and maybe send in some money. People who become members (by sending in a check or credit card number) are given "premiums" like coffee mugs, videotapes, t-shirts, etc. Then, throughout the year, the stations make announcements about how their programming is made possible by the generous support of their members. I guess it must work, because they're still broadcasting.
Edit: I think that most of the cost of these stations is borne by a sponsoring university and government grants. But the model of membership subscriptions might still be useful. In addition, most programs are preceded by corporate sponsor announcements ("the following program is made possible by a grant from General Motors" .
Second edit: maybe change the settler/warlord/prince/etc. to member (paid subscriber) and visitor (freeloader). Then we'd have a whole new reason to insult one another  .
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited March 12, 2001).]</font>
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:13
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I gotta just say that I think HAVING to click on an ad is the wrong way to go about it. I'm familiar with that scheme. There's a site that will let you d/l "fairly" recent games if you store up "ad credits." The whole thing sucks after a while, and I never paid any attention to the ad I clicked, thus not one sale came from me. I decided to get games elsewhere.
I feel the same sort of thing would happen here to an awful lot of people. And in the end, you'd still be a slave to ads.
Markos, my advice is this:
Write a kind of "State of Apolyton Finances" article. Tell this community the truth about how much it costs to run this site, how much time you and Dan put in personally, how much money you DON'T make doing all this. Refer to the other various Civ sites that have come and died. And, as a first step, appeal to people's WILL as I mentioned above. Make it a voluntary but highly visible community effort to support Apolyton.
Don't make it a whinning sort of thing, but factual. I bet most people here would be absolutely shocked to hear how difficult it is to run this site. IMPORTANT: Make it clear HOW they can send their money and WHERE. For example, personal checks might not work in Greece or Canada, etc. Also clearly explain the PERSONAL BENEFITS of their contribution.
And stress that this is a pilot program. If it works, you might have a "fund-raising" effort every 4 months or so. Again, contributors will get benefits. But even people who don't contribute will continue here without problems.
A final way to look at this IF you go with ads is to make it only applicable up to King level. After that point, you have "paid your dues" so to speak. Certainly you don't want to force long time and frequent posters to have to keep clicking ads month in and month out.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:13
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Sell bannings, and announce who paid what. Then let banned people buy back in. They'll be pissed, and pay to ban the guy that had them banned. Mark, the OT alone will pay for the whole site and make you rich. 
Lifetime bans should never be sold...(for less than $10,000 USD)
Also, let people who offend buy back their post counts. Imran...
Actually, I'll go for what Rah said, no mandatory payment. That would drive away those who cound not afford and add in the double whamy of keeping new ppl from joining, killing the site IMO.
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by yin26 on 03-12-2001 07:11 PM</font>
Write a kind of "State of Apolyton Finances" article. Tell this community the truth about how much it costs to run this site, how much time you and Dan put in personally, how much money you DON'T make doing all this.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
But don't forget to mention your yacht "Apolyton" or Dan's Ferrari
------------------
Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.
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OldWarrior_42
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For the record... I would not be willing to pay one dime to get rid of ads. They don't bother me. I minimize them and don't worry about it at all. And I don't like to pay for something I figure I might get elsewhere.(Although it may not be what I like or want)
But now here is the kicker... I would be very willing to Donate money for something I enjoy. Thats the difference. I would be happy to donate if it is your desire to ask.... but I wouldn't be happy to pay for something I don't care about.
You can always send me an email or PM asking for a donation if it is really what you need.
Now to answer two other points...First by Yin... <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>A final way to look at this IF you go with ads is to make it only applicable up to King level. After that point, you have "paid your dues" so to speak.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Not a good idea. Look at someone like me. I use this site often, but I read more than anything else. Look at how long I have been here and how many posts I have. I could have made thousands more but I like a low profile here and I don't have time anyway to keep up with debates or other discussions to give me the sense of continuity that I like in conversation. I might never reach King and I don't care. Also you might have a spamming problem from those trying to reach King quickly for obvious reasons... etc.. You get the idea. Nice idea in theory, but probably not practical.
Second, to answer a point brought up by Henrik... <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>As long as paying will just make the ads go away for you it's ok.
If there would be aditional "features" for paying customers or forums restricted for "paying customers only" then it's not fair to us whitout the ability to pay.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Why would it "not be fair"? If someone decides that paying customers get more for what they contribute for, then it is perfectly fair. Do people that cannot afford a large house to own, complain it is not fair to them because they cannot afford to pay for it? It is free enterprise. That is how the system works and if the owners of this site decide it is what they want or need to do... it is their decision. Of course they will either reap the rewards of this decision or live with the demise of their site, depending on whether or not they get lots of subscribers or suffer a mass exodus. But as Markos explained anyway, there will always be an option for those to view the site free of charge, so fairness to you is not really a question.
I am just pointing out that what is fair is not always a clear cut vision. Take into consideration all sides to see whether it is a fair decision, a hard one, neccesary or whatever. There are always more than one side to a story.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by OldWarrior_42 (edited March 12, 2001).]</font>
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12-03-2001 19:05
okay, okay, I'll pay anything if you'll make it stop 
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