13-07-2004 00:05									#61
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Drake: "This isn't street violence. A woman and her 13-month old child were attacked on a train, in the suburbs, just because someone thought they were Jews. That never happens in America." The above is an accurate statement as far as it goes. Maybe that misses the point, but the same is true for lots of statements on all sides on this forum.

Accurate? Accurate in the sense it has never happened-accurate in the sense it could not happen? Those two are different. We anti-semitic violence in this city- only 13 years ago there were the crown heights riots in NYC. You also left the parentheses section about it not happening in any other western state- thought Panag would be interested in that given his threads about belgium.

	13-07-2004 00:14									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Accurate? Accurate in the sense it has never happened-accurate in the sense it could not happen? Those two are different. We anti-semitic violence in this city- only 13 years ago there were the crown heights riots in NYC. You also left the parentheses section about it not happening in any other western state- thought Panag would be interested in that given his threads about belgium.

Accurate in the sense it never happened. Lets get legalistic. Crown Heights riot did not take place on a train, was a riot and not a coldblooded attack by a small gang, etc. So yes its accurate.


If you want to say that it wasnt accurate in the larger sense - IE that hate crimes including murder, including an antisemitic murder DO happen here, I would suggest that it would only be fair to look at what Drake was responding to.

"Am I the only one who thinks it amusing to see an American condemning France because of the street violence in there?"

Drakes point - that while the US may have more street crime than France, this is in a different category from street crime, is essentially correct. VJ's point is wrong and misleading - more so than Drakes. Had VJ been pointing to the Matthew Shepard case, or the Crown Heights pogrom, it would have been different but he was not. In the context of the discussion Drakes point was perfectly reasonable - you may choose to respond to it sarcastically if you wish, but I thought it worth taking issue with your post.

	13-07-2004 01:21									#63
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I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France.

However, the rise of antisemitic violence is very worrisome, and is a concern for our politicians.

Between 1997 and 2002, the Socialists in power believed that street violence and increasing communitarian hatred were a side-effect of unemployment. As such, they didn't deal with antisemitism directly, and downplayed the problem indeed.

But in 2002, Chirac and his team back in power understood it was really a specific problem, that had to be adressed specifically.
There are two schools of thought about antisemitism, one incarnated by Chirac, the other by Sarkozy.

Chirac believes antisemitism is a part of a general communitarian malaise in France. He seems to consider all forms of racism must be fought to fight against each one effectively.
Sarkozy, by his own admittance, doesn't "want to explain antisemitism, because it would be starting to excuse it". His policies as police minister was to increase police presence, and in particular to break with the Socialist's policy of policemen's discretion.

Sarkozy's policy were a short term success, as petty crimes and hate crimes reduced in 2003 (antisemitic violence reduced very strongly). However, even though the increased police presence adressed the "feeling of impunity" which was one of the causes of such criminality, it didn't adress the general malaise. This is a reason why petty crime and antisemitic violence are on the rise again.

	13-07-2004 01:36									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France. a reason why petty crime and antisemitic violence are on the rise again.

The replacement of Sarkozy by De Villepin as Interior Minister?

	13-07-2004 01:46									#65
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The replacement of Sarkozy by De Villepin as Interior Minister?

Nope, because the police methods haven't changed, and De Villepin tries to get as much popularity from the job as possible.

It is simply the obvious biting in the ass: the only answer of the government to crime and hate crime, so far, have been increased police. It was useful at short term, since many petty criminals had no fear of the police, but it was bound to stop being useful quite quickly.

Especially when overall racism worsens, when life gets more difficult, etc.

The right is making exactly the same mistake as the left wrt crime and hate crime: they act on only one variable (the left on economic problems, the right on police problems), and aren't honest or pragmatic enough to try looking at the big picture.

	13-07-2004 01:54									#66
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Another factoid

"The anxiety within the French Jewish community is palpable, and it can be measured by another set of statistics: Between 1999 and 2001, the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel averaged 1,173 per year; in 2002, it nearly doubled to 2,035 and has continued to climb.

In the first six months of 2004, the number was 685, but officials in Israel say they are planning for an influx of 500 this month. While Israel is happy to have the newcomers, leaders of the French Jewish community are disturbed.

"It's a catastrophe for France's image in the world, and it's destabilizing for the Jewish community in France," Drai said.

"If they are going to Israel for spiritual reasons, fine," said Jean-Pierre Allali, a member of the executive board of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France. "But if they are going to escape anti-Semitism, it's very bad."

Allali suggested that despite the increase, the number of Jews leaving France was not significant. "It's not a tidal wave. It's a very small minority," he said.

But Jean-Jacques Wahl, director of a Jewish educational foundation in France, said he sees many French Jews, especially younger ones, hedging their bets.

"Among young people, fewer are choosing professions like the law. Instead they are studying business or computers, because these skills are more transportable. For me that's the most important change," he said. "


I would note that while the economy has improved, conditions in Israel have continued to be difficult. I know of no signs of such growth of emigration to Israel from any other Western country.

	13-07-2004 01:58									#67
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Well, immigration from the US to Israel is higher than "normal" this year as well, re the NYT.

	13-07-2004 02:08									#68
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That's some ripe cherry-picked statistics there.

	13-07-2004 02:15									#69
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, immigration from the US to Israel is higher than "normal" this year as well, re the NYT.

really, I havent seen that. If you have a link Id appreciate it.

	13-07-2004 03:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman That's some ripe cherry-picked statistics there.

Indeed. Very entertaining though.

	13-07-2004 03:21									#71
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You see the way this works is this: France and Israel have conflicting interests. Various lobbies of Israel WILL badmouth France wherever they are found in order to hurt her.

It's a sad state of affairs when they use the jewish tragedy in order to do this. Also makes it harder to see if and where and how much of a problem really exists. A disservice of humanity and service, as they see it, of national interests.

	13-07-2004 03:25									#72
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of course this propaganda only works in countries like the US where let's face it, it just waits for things against France. Doesn't work in other parts of the world like Europe where such attempts by various israeli lobby groups have long time now become transparent.

not that any of this matters to the palestinians who live in utter poverty oppression and murder or the israelis who get killed in suicide bombings and live a life with no feeling of security.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 13-07-2004 at 03:37

	13-07-2004 03:53									#73
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And, of course, there start to be doubts about the woman's story. I didn't want to say anything about my suspicions, given the awful nature of the attack (if it happened) but things did not seem to me to add up.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...k.ap/index.html

quote: Surveillance cameras at the station where the culprits reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and no witnesses have come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

	13-07-2004 03:56									#74
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In fact, one of the major signs that an assault has been faked (if the victim is a woman) is the accusation that the assaulter drew things on her.

In actuality this almost never happens (in terms of criminal behaviour), but is often done by a false accuser.

Not to say that this is an ironclad demonstration of falsehood, but it is one thing which raised red flags with me.

	13-07-2004 04:08									#75
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There was a case in Sweden some years ago, when a bunch of nazis assaulted a politically active girl (social democrat, IIRC) and cut a swastika in her forehead with a razor blade. So it does happen

	13-07-2004 04:11									#76
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a) I know it does

b) Cutting and drawing are different things. The psychological difference in an attacker's mind might revolve around the fact that cutting something into somebody is a permanent disfigurement whereas a marker is easily washed off. If you're going to go to the effort, you may as well do it in a way which sticks. Also, a faker is less likely to go to the extent of cutting herself than she is to do something which causes her no pain.

	13-07-2004 04:13									#77
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Again, I'm not saying it was necessarily faked, but I've had doubts about this one from the start. The lack of any corroborating evidence when there should be mounds of it is a big sign.

	13-07-2004 05:29									#78
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quote: I find it obvious Drake wouldn't have raised the issue if somthing like that had occured elsewhere than France.

You're incorrect. I'd be all over this if it had happened in Germany or the Netherlands or some other western European country. Not Beligium, though, as Belgium is irrelevant.

	13-07-2004 13:03									#79
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The New York Times thinks it really happened. So do the French police, it seems.

quote: France Condemns Anti-Semitic Attack By THE NEW YORK TIMES Published: July 12, 2004 PARIS, July 11 — Politicians have condemned an anti-Semitic attack against a young woman and her baby on a commuter train near Paris on Friday, the latest in a string of such incidents in France. Six young men accused the woman of being Jewish, then used a knife to cut her clothing and drew three swastikas on her stomach with a marker. The attackers also overturned the stroller carrying the woman's 13-month-old baby. President Jacques Chirac, in a statement on Saturday, asked that everything possible be done "to find the authors of this shameful act." According to a police spokesman, the attackers surrounded the woman, apparently in an attempt to steal the child's stroller. One young man grabbed the woman's backpack and examined her identity papers, which gave her address as the upscale 16th Arrondissement of Paris. "At this, one of them said, `She's a rich kid,' " the police spokesman said. "And then he adds, `There are only Jews in the 16th.' " The spokesman said the woman was not Jewish and no longer lives in the 16th Arrondissement. The attackers, who appeared to be of North African and African origin, slashed the woman's clothing and cut off a lock of her hair — "as a souvenir," one attacker is reported as saying. After cutting the stroller, the attackers overturned it and got off the train, taking the woman's credit card and 200 euros or about $248. The baby suffered a bruise. The government has reported more anti-Semitic incidents for the first half of 2004 than for all of 2003.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/i...ope/12PARI.html

Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

	13-07-2004 13:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

As I said, there was also a massive decrease last year, when agressive policing was first put into place.

It would be more interesting to compare with 2002 and 2001. I would sadly not be surprised if antisemitic violence was on the rise (and a significant one), but not something like "it doubles every year".

	13-07-2004 14:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm sure it never happens, just like gays are never tied up to a remote Wyoming fencepost and severely beaten, left for dead.

...and the perps are never sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty to avoid the death penalty...

	13-07-2004 18:28									#82
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And, of course, there start to be doubts about the woman's story. I didn't want to say anything about my suspicions, given the awful nature of the attack (if it happened) but things did not seem to me to add up. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...k.ap/index.html quote: Surveillance cameras at the station where the culprits reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and no witnesses have come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity.

If the facts turn out to be otherwise than as initially reported, then of course this is not a sign of anything other than a troubled young woman. AFAIK its too early too tell.

	13-07-2004 22:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The New York Times thinks it really happened. So do the French police, it seems. quote: France Condemns Anti-Semitic Attack By THE NEW YORK TIMES Published: July 12, 2004 PARIS, July 11 — Politicians have condemned an anti-Semitic attack against a young woman and her baby on a commuter train near Paris on Friday, the latest in a string of such incidents in France. Six young men accused the woman of being Jewish, then used a knife to cut her clothing and drew three swastikas on her stomach with a marker. The attackers also overturned the stroller carrying the woman's 13-month-old baby. President Jacques Chirac, in a statement on Saturday, asked that everything possible be done "to find the authors of this shameful act." According to a police spokesman, the attackers surrounded the woman, apparently in an attempt to steal the child's stroller. One young man grabbed the woman's backpack and examined her identity papers, which gave her address as the upscale 16th Arrondissement of Paris. "At this, one of them said, `She's a rich kid,' " the police spokesman said. "And then he adds, `There are only Jews in the 16th.' " The spokesman said the woman was not Jewish and no longer lives in the 16th Arrondissement. The attackers, who appeared to be of North African and African origin, slashed the woman's clothing and cut off a lock of her hair — "as a souvenir," one attacker is reported as saying. After cutting the stroller, the attackers overturned it and got off the train, taking the woman's credit card and 200 euros or about $248. The baby suffered a bruise. The government has reported more anti-Semitic incidents for the first half of 2004 than for all of 2003. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/12/i...ope/12PARI.html Article also backs up Oerdin's alarming figures on the massive increase in anti-Semitic attacks in France.

Duh. The French police aren't going to accuse her of making stuff up unless they have proof it didn't happen. What would they look like if they said they doubted her story and then it turns out it actually happened? They're going to play blind man until they're 100% sure. Now explain to me why the surveillance camera footage doesn't show anybody running from the train where she said they did.

quote: f the facts turn out to be otherwise than as initially reported, then of course this is not a sign of anything other than a troubled young woman. AFAIK its too early too tell.

I agree. Just like if the attacks had actually occurred then it wouldn't be a sign of anything other than a group of disturbed young men, right?

Threads like this one piss me off, especially when the president of France himself, along with numerous other politicians and every major newspaper in the country all came out to decry what sounded like an appalling attack and lack of reaction on the part of the other passengers. The "holier-than-thou" attitude toward an entire country due to the actions of a small minority is indicative of the same sort of bigoted mindset the thread is condemning.

And I agree that I don't know one way or the other whether or not the attack happened at this point. But there are several elements which provoke suspicion:

1) This woman has made a number of complaints to police about being assaulted in the recent past, none of which were supported by any corroborating evidence

2) The cutting of hair and drawing on the skin are both cosmetic disfigurements which do no lasting damage, a sign of false accusation

3) No witnesses whatsoever have come forward, despite promises of anonymity

4) The surveillance camera footage from the station where the woman said the attackers disembarked does not, in fact, show men of the description she gave disembarking

5) The absolute randomness of the choice of victim seems suspicious to me. I would expect more an attack on a woman leaving a synagogue or a man wearing a yarmulke etc. Something to make the victim stand out from the crowd.

	13-07-2004 22:51									#84
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Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

	13-07-2004 22:58									#85
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quote: Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Don't say that. People are going to criticize your holier-than-thou attitude and bigoted mindset.

	13-07-2004 23:01									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Indeed, and even if the story turns out to be bogus, the political elite will nonetheless say there is a real problem. Which is true, whether this particular story is true or not.

	14-07-2004 00:34									#87
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God I hate it when KH is right...

quote: French Officials: Hate Crime Fabricated By JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer PARIS - Just days after claiming to having been the victim of a cruel anti-Semitic attack that stunned France, a young mother confessed she fabricated the story, authorities said Tuesday. The woman had claimed she was robbed on a suburban train Friday by a knife-wielding gang that mistook her for a Jew and scrawled swastikas on her body. Police could find no clues or witnesses and took the woman in for questioning Tuesday. There was no immediate explanation of the woman's motives for having made up the story. Reports of the attack in a suburban Paris train outraged France, drawing fierce condemnation from politicians and Jewish groups. The woman told police her young attackers were of North African and African origin and that none of some 20 witnesses in the train car came to her rescue. She said the gang robbed her and turned over a stroller holding her infant, causing the baby to tumble to the floor. Newspapers gave the story front-page prominence Monday with headlines like "The Train of Hate." But, by Tuesday, front pages turned skeptical. "Questions on an attack," said Liberation, which reported the woman's account was full of "gray areas" and "contradictions." Surveillance cameras at the station where the gang reportedly left the train showed no young men running from the scene, and none of the alleged 20 witnesses had come forward despite repeated calls from officials and promises of anonymity. Both France-Info radio and the television station LCI reported that the young woman had filed several complaints about violence and aggression in the past that never panned out. Neither provided sources, but LCI said she had filed six such complaints. Justice Minister Dominique Perben urged the public to be patient and wait for investigators to reach a conclusion. "All the elements are being verified and screened," he said earlier Tuesday. "It is, therefore, essential to wait for this work to be finished before making up our minds one way or the other." In a morning radio interview, government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope said that whether the woman's account proved true or not had little bearing on France's need to stem hate crimes. "The explosion of the number of racist and anti-Semitic acts committed in our country in the last few years is a reality that we must combat," Cope told RTL radio. The Interior Ministry released figures last week showing that hate crimes had spiked in the first half of the year. There were 510 anti-Jewish acts or threats in the first six months of 2004 — nearly as many as in all of last year, 593. Racist attacks were up too: There were 95 attacks and 161 threats through June, compared to 232 total such crimes reported in 2003.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...mitic_attack_13

Let the gloating begin, you bastard...

	14-07-2004 00:43									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men".

Perhaps, but in that case it might be better to discuss it in another thread. I dont think youre gonna have a coherent discussion of a problem in a thread about a case where that problem didnt actually occur.

	14-07-2004 00:46									#89
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On the plus-side, it's good to see that the French media was actually taking this case seriously until it became known that it was a hoax. Maybe things are getting better...

	14-07-2004 00:50									#90
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I'm not gloating because I really don't think that whether or not this one attack happened was really indicative of anything.

The fact is that there has been a recent increase of hate crimes both against Jews and Muslims in France (and in Canada, the US and, I'm sure, a number of other Western countries). 2 months ago a Jewish school a mile from my girlfriend's house was burned to the ground. However, it is very reassuring to me to see the unbelievably strong reaction it provoked. The Prime Minister of Canada visited the site, along with the Premier of Quebec and a number of other important officials. The major newspapers in the country all carried it as their lead story. Nobody is going to remain silent when members of our community are attacked for what race or religion they belong to.

In other words, to all those who carry out racially motivated crimes.

to the average citizens and politicians who will not stand for it in the US, Canada or France.