14-07-2004 00:53									#91
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Great, now you're being magnanimous. That really pisses me off...

	14-07-2004 00:55									#92
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I knew it would.

	14-07-2004 01:12									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Outside of official proclamations, nobody seems to be particularly surprised. That suggests, to me, that whether the attack took place or not, we've got a problem bigger than a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men". Don't say that. People are going to criticize your holier-than-thou attitude and bigoted mindset.

Criticizing me for being holier-than-thou (not hard, in thy case!) and a bigot is like criticizing the pope for being a catholic.

	14-07-2004 01:14									#94
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Perhaps, but in that case it might be better to discuss it in another thread. I dont think youre gonna have a coherent discussion of a problem in a thread about a case where that problem didnt actually occur.

Perhaps. People, however, made the remarks about it being just a "troubled young woman" or a "group of disturbed young men" in this thread, so it felt like an appropriate place to make my point.

	14-07-2004 01:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The fact is that there has been a recent increase of hate crimes both against Jews and Muslims in France (and in Canada, the US and, I'm sure, a number of other Western countries).

"ADL Welcomes Decline in Hate Crimes Reported To FBI

New York, NY, October 27, 2003 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) welcomed findings from the annual FBI crime report released today that indicated that hate crimes across the country declined from record high levels of 2001. The League called for increased education and training for police agencies and expanded coordination between federal and state authorities to investigate and prosecute hate crimes.


The 2002 FBI hate crime data, released today and collected under the mandate of the 1990 Hate Crime Statistics Act (HCSA), documented 7,462 hate crimes – an almost 23 percent decrease from the 9,730 hate crimes reported by the FBI in 2001. The report documents over 1,400 religion-based crimes – more than 65 percent directed against Jews and Jewish institutions"

	14-07-2004 01:18									#96
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I assume the record in 2001 was based on anti-Muslim attacks post 9/11. Anyone got the 2000 figures?

	14-07-2004 01:20									#97
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I assume the record in 2001 was based on anti-Muslim attacks post 9/11. Anyone got the 2000 figures?

FBI does, but its all in very large PDF's. Presumably there were press reports on the 2002 release of the 2001 data.

	14-07-2004 01:21									#98
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Actually, I was thinking about the rise prior to 2001. Was not really aware of most recent stats.

	14-07-2004 12:11									#99
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/st...1260752,00.html

Ummm? So the woman made it all up. This is just bizarre.

quote: The woman's tale was headline news across Europe, but by yesterday it had taken a remarkable twist. It became clear that not only was the attack not anti-semitic in any traditional sense (the victim was not a Jew) but also it was not an attack at all. The young woman confessed to having made it all up, authorities said. Conscious of the case's extreme sensitivity, police had previously mobilised every resource to hunt for the attackers - but with no success. A thorough study of CCTV footage at the stations where they allegedly got on and got off found no trace of the six north African teenagers. Nor did it find the alleged victim, identified only as Marie, or her pushchair. A well-publicised appeal for witnesses drew a blank. No station worker remembers seeing anyone in distress, and the ticket collector to whom the young mother says she first recounted her story has no memory of the occasion. Marie's mother then admitted her daughter had some mental health problems and a tendency to fantasise. Anonymous acquaintances told the media she often fabricated unlikely stories, and police sources yesterday revealed she had on six separate occasions between 1999 and 2002 alleged an assault; none of the six had been substantiated.

	14-07-2004 15:08									#100
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis yes... and so does the fact that a woman when she's beeing raped has to cry fire in order for people to come and take a look

When a woman is being raped and cries "fire" the approproiate response is: I will as soon as I get a clear shot.

	14-07-2004 16:22									#101
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I just understood what "CCTV footage" means, by reading Ramo's article.

Before, I thought it meant some CCTV cameraman (Continental China TeleVision) was present on the site

	14-07-2004 18:24									#102
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(entering tin hat country)

Ya, know, if you WANTED to make it hard for antisemitic attacks to be taken seriously, you couldnt have done much better than this woman did.


(yeah, i know thats insane - on the level of the Mossad doing 9/11 = just thought id leave it for you to chew on)

	14-07-2004 18:44									#103
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ya, know, if you WANTED to make it hard for antisemitic attacks to be taken seriously, you couldnt have done much better than this woman did.

True.

The cause of the fight against antisemitism could definitely have done without this

	14-07-2004 18:47									#104
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so she made it all up then eh?


great...

	14-07-2004 19:30									#105
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...k.ap/index.html

further doubt is shed.


Also, Friendly, Friendly Nixon:

quote: 26 May 1971 President Richard M. Nixon observes: "You know, it's a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana is Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob? What is the matter with them? I suppose it is because most of them are psychiatrists." 5 Jul 1971 In the oval office, President Richard M. Nixon compares notes with underlings Bob Haldeman and Ron Ziegler: NIXON: Jewish families are close, but there's this strange malignancy that seems to creep among them -- radicalism. I can imagine how the fact that Ellsberg is in this must really tear a fella like Henry to pieces -- or Garment. Just like the Rosenbergs and all that. It just has to kill them. I feel horrible about it. ZIEGLER: Could make up an English name. HALDEMAN: ... Rosenstein could change his name. ... [general laughter] ZIEGLER: It is right. It's always an "Ellsberg." NIXON: Every one's a Jew. Ellsberg's a Jew. Halperin's a Jew. HALDEMAN: Gelb's a Jew. NIXON: But there are [unclear] -- Hiss was not a Jew. Very interesting thing. So few of those who engage in espionage -- are Negroes. ... In fact, very few of them become Communists. If they do, they like, they get into Angela Davis -- they're more the capitalist type. And they throw bombs and this and that. But the Negroes. -- have you ever noticed? ... Any Negro spies? HALDEMAN: Not intellectual enough, not smart enough... not smart enough to be spies. NIXON: The Jews -- the Jews are, are born spies. You notice how many of them are just in up to their necks? HALDEMAN: A basic deviousness. 13 Sep 1971 President Richard M. Nixon tells Bob Haldeman: "Now here's the point, Bob. Please get the names of the Jews. You know, the big Jewish contributors to the Democrats. Could you please investigate some of the cocksuckers? That's all." 14 Sep 1971 President Richard M. Nixon resumes the previous day's conversation with Bob Haldeman: NIXON: What about the rich Jews? The IRS is full of Jews, Bob. HALDEMAN: What we ought to do is get a zealot who dislikes those people. NIXON: Go after them like a son of a *****.

Or:
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wa...jhatecrime.html

	14-07-2004 19:58									#106
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I suggest to anybody who can read French to look at today's articles in Liberation (best described as pro- Parti Socialiste), which was rather cautious about the issue from the beginning.

They are gloating of course, now that the stroy is confirmed as false, but one article is especially interesting: the reactions of Black and Arabic readers (per e-mail), who feel they have been made even more a scapegoat with this "perfect horror" (imagine: Arabs and Blacks, who are sexist, attack a young mother and her baby).

The reactions of the Jewish community is very interesting as well, and also spot-on IMHO. They don't think they overreacted, because the current climate makes such a horrendous attack simply credible. Something we wouldn't have believed a few years ago did not surprise anybody here.

	14-07-2004 20:01									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...k.ap/index.html further doubt is shed. Also, Friendly, Friendly Nixon: Or: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wa...jhatecrime.html

You mean there IS antisemitism in the USA???? And that Nixon was a vulgar man, with vulgar prejudices?? Wow, Im shocked, shocked I tell you.

More shockers - US fast food chains serve junk food - did you know that? Theres some kind of disagreement involving China and Taiwan - whod have thunk it? Some folks say Civ3 isnt such a great game. So much to learn.

	14-07-2004 20:03									#108
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i cant find it in liberation first page

	14-07-2004 20:10									#109
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quote: I suggest to anybody who can read French to look at today's articles in Liberation

If you post a link, I'll try

	14-07-2004 20:16									#110
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btw that thread has turned out great.

first a slap face humiliation to the puke that is drag queen.
second a sonorous slap in the face for the usual victimizasion syndrome poster of ours


now let's get the liberation article and see the real victimization that of the arabs and of french society by those lies

	14-07-2004 20:24									#111
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There are several articles, actually:

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223645
http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223646
http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223647
http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223648

They're rather short. The one I bolded is the one which contains the reactions of Arabic / Black readers, and of representatives of the Jewish community.

	14-07-2004 20:35									#112
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this fruit cake even cut herself up to load it on the arabs and the french society... nice

	14-07-2004 20:36									#113
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maybe she was american

	14-07-2004 20:48									#114
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 btw that thread has turned out great. first a slap face humiliation to the puke that is drag queen. second a sonorous slap in the face for the usual victimizasion syndrome poster of ours now let's get the liberation article and see the real victimization that of the arabs and of french society by those lies

I wouldn't be as peremptory as you are, Paiktis.

1) Drake reported a news item that was accepted as fact by every French news media. It is nothing like a lie from abroad aimed at hurting France's image.
If you consider Drake to be humiliated, so is everybody in this thread who believed the story, i.e everybody but KrazyHorse.

2) Even though it's tempting to stigmatize LOTM as an American Jew, you should stop doing it. LOTM has a more complex worldview than our stereotypes grant to American Jews.

Besides, had this terrible story been true, it would have been little more than a symbol of a problem that is genuine. Antisemitism is on the rise in France. As is anti-Islamism (I don't know if our Yanks know that a Muslim graveyard has been desecrated as horribly as a Jewish one shortly before - or maybe they also don't know one of our major columnists wrote his hatred for Islam as a religion which he deems turn people stupid...).

	14-07-2004 20:50									#115
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Why are you talking sense to a racist troll?

	14-07-2004 20:52									#116
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dinodoc u act as if you're in a place where you can have serious conversasion and you're able to have one.

	14-07-2004 20:53									#117
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BTW, happy Bastille Day Spiff

	14-07-2004 20:54									#118
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quote: Besides, had this terrible story been true, it would have been little more than a symbol of a problem that is genuine. Antisemitism is on the rise in France. As is anti-Islamism (I don't know if our Yanks know that a Muslim graveyard has been desecrated as horribly as a Jewish one shortly before - or maybe they also don't know one of our major columnists wrote his hatred for Islam as a religion which he deems turn people stupid...).

Most religions do.

	14-07-2004 20:54									#119
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why are you talking sense to a racist troll?

Because I think he's in reality much better than a racist troll.

	14-07-2004 20:56									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Besides, had this terrible story been true, it would have been little more than a symbol of a problem that is genuine. Antisemitism is on the rise in France. As is anti-Islamism (I don't know if our Yanks know that a Muslim graveyard has been desecrated as horribly as a Jewish one shortly before - or maybe they also don't know one of our major columnists wrote his hatred for Islam as a religion which he deems turn people stupid...).

sorry to hear about the muslim graveyard - i hope the police catch whoever did it.

as for the columnist though - how is that different from whats said about Christianity (and Judaism, when they remember to even mention it) by antireligionists all the time?