 |
| |
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
 |
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
|
|
quote:
I was solely addressing the charicature of the revolution as a "revolt," which doesn't do it justice. It was a widespread, fullblown war in which perhaps as many as 500,000 Fillipino civilians died. |
If you wish to get into a semantic argument, you will not win. A revolution is the overthrow of a goverment and replacement by the revolting party. A revolt, OTOH, is an attempt to overthrow.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=revolution
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=revolt
quote:
The revolution did involve a "win," which was the overthrow of the Spanish. |
 If you think Aguinaldo's campaign overthrew the Spanish, you really have to face reality, Boris. The overthrow of the Spanish was accomplished by the Americans who took over Manilla Bay and then forced Spain's hand into transferring it. Aguinaldo had very little impact on Spain's loss of control, if at all.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
 |
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[If you wish to get into a semantic argument, you will not win. |
No, Imran, it's you who are arguing semantics. Care to take on the Encyclopedia Britannica?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/articl...087&tocid=23716
I'm sure they'll be happy to receive a letter from you with a dictionary citation explaining your position. You can also write the Columbia Encyclopedia and Wikipedia, among 1,000s of others.
quote:
If you think Aguinaldo's campaign overthrew the Spanish, you really have to face reality, Boris. The overthrow of the Spanish was accomplished by the Americans who took over Manilla Bay and then forced Spain's hand into transferring it. Aguinaldo had very little impact on Spain's loss of control, if at all. |
No one has argued that American intervention wasn't crucial, but so was French intervention to the American Revolution. That means it wasn't a revolution? And Aguinaldo isn't the be-all and end-all of the uprising--there was a lot more to it than just him. He compromised with the Spaniards after all, but the uprising continued. The fact that the Spaniards were forced to accept demands in 1897, before American intervention, in the first place is telling.
Still, I think you're shortchanging Aguinado's influence. Some interesting stuff:
quote:
Renato Constantino (The Philippines: A Past Revisited) points out that historians have treated the time when Aguinaldo was in Hong Kong as a period when the revolution was put on hold. That was during a time when he and others in Hong Kong were planning its resumption and, with this view, the acts of resistance in the country while Aguinaldo was away were “dismissed as if they were not part of the revolutionary stream.... Actually, the different manifestations of resistance which Aguinaldo so cavalierly branded as banditry just because he had chosen to surrender were the continuing expression of the people’s determination to fight for the goals of the Katipunan.”
Then, Aguinaldo was again in the Philippines, ready to lead the very ones he had branded bandits.
With Aguinaldo’s return to the Philippines, Constantino saw “four major forces on the historical stage”:
1. Spanish colonialism, which was trying to ward off its impending end.
2. American imperialism, which was waiting for such time when it had gathered sufficient military strength in the Philippines before showing its real motives.
3. The Filipino ilustrados, whose main concern was to place themselves in a jockeying position whatever political setup was to emerge. (However, their ultimate objective was supposedly independence, but they were ready to accept becoming an American protectorate or even annexation, just as they readily accepted continuing Spanish rule after the Pact of Biak-na-Bato).
4. And the masses, who still believed in and fought for the revolutionary objectives of the Katipunan.
The people showed that they could continue the struggle without the leadership of those who entered into the Pact of Biak-na-Bato. However, they were unaware of the “dangers that its (leadership) inherently compromising nature posed for the goal of independence.”
On May 21, 1898, two days after he arrived, Aguinaldo in a letter advised the people to “respect foreigners and their properties, also enemies who surrender...if we do not conduct ourselves thus the Americans will decide to sell us or else divide up our territory as they will hold us incapable of governing our land, we shall not secure our liberty; rather the contrary; our own soil will be delivered over to other hands.”
When news of Aguinaldo’s arrival spread, a number of Filipino volunteers in the Spanish army defected to the Filipino side. They were assigned to occupy Dalahikan, the Cavite shipyard, to prevent it from falling into the hands of the Spaniards. Munitions were obtained from the captain of the American warship Petrel.
By the end of May, with the growing number of revolutionary supporters, 5,000 Spaniards had been captured. Within a week, Imus and Bacood, in Cavite, and Parañaque and Las Piñas in Morong, were seized from Spanish control, so with San Fernando and Macabebe in Pampanga. Joining the fight for freedom were the provinces of Laguna, Batangas, Bulacan, Nueva Ecija, Bataan, Tayabas (Quezon), and Camarines.
|
quote:
Cavite Falls. The renewed revolution after Aguinaldo’s arrival from Hongkong immediately became a success. By June 2, 1898, General Artemio Ricarte accepted the surrender of the Spanish commanding general in Cavite.
The Filipinos gained victory after victory. Within the month of June 1898, almost the whole of Luzon (except for the port of Cavite and Manila) had fallen into rebel hands. It was these victories by the people that “gave substance to the legal institutions the ilustrados were establishing.
|
quote:
One by One. By the time the Battle of Manila was to be held, other parts of the country were already in complete control of Aguinaldo’s forces. In July, the provinces of La Union, Pangasinan, and Mindoro were taken. Generals Manuel and Casimiro Tinio went to Ilocos from Nueva Ecija to Ilocus Sur. Other forces were sent to Antique and Capiz.
|
quote:
More Provinces Recovered. In September, 1898, the provinces of Isabela and Nueva Vizcaya were recovered. General Vicente Lukban also rushed to Samar and Leyte where he met little opposition. On September 15, 1898, in Malolos, Bulacan, President Aguinaldo formally declared the conclusion of the liberation of the Philippines. By October, General Lukban was in control of the situation Camarines.
On November 29, 1898, the Malolos Congress approved the constitution. However, Aguinaldo refused to sign it due to Mabini’s objections.
Meanwhile, there were still Spanish garrisons in Cebu and Iloilo under General Montero and General de los Rios respectively. (Montero and his forces later surrendered on December 24, 1898. General de los Rios was to evacuate to Iloilo on December 26 and leave for Zamboanga on the way home to Spain.)
When Mabini’s objections were satisfied the Malolos Constitution was promulgated on January 21, 1899. On January 23, 1899, the Philippine Republic was inaugurated in Malolos, with Aguinaldo as its first president.
Despite the proclamation of the Philippine independence and the establishment of the First Philippine Republic, the Philippines did not become a member of the family of nations. Among others, the United States and Spain did not recognize it. The U.S. had by then decided to annex the Philippines as its territory in the Pacific.
|
It was a still-born revolution, but a revolution nonetheless. You can hardly call the Filippino actions against the Spanish failures. Hell, by the time Manila was taken by the Americans, almost the entirety of the Philippines was under Aguinaldo's control. The Spanish "ceding" of the Philippines was a laughably empty gesture, as they didn't own any of it to cede at that point.
Also interesting in this excerpt are the descriptions of American duplicity in the matter, especially the "mock" battle of Manila. Fascinating...
And this bit should be noted, from one of those obviously in error Encyclopedias:
quote:
When the Republicans regained power in 1921, the trend toward bringing Filipinos into the government was reversed. Gen. Leonard Wood, who was appointed governor-general, largely supplanted Filipino activities with a semimilitary rule. |
Funny how this non-existant revolution garners 6,850 hits on google and 12,500 on yahoo...
Last edited by Boris Godunov on 15-07-2004 at 07:35
|
|
| |
|
|
|
SnowFire
|
 |
New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
|
|
The Philippines are full of little brown people. There were enough white-enough looking people in Cuba that we could decide they were almost like a white country. If you think that's harsh or a troll, I invite you to read the pleadings by the United States government in the insular cases.
Hmm. Interesting. Yes, I've read a few excerpts from the Insular Cases, awhile back, but a good point- I certainly knew the contemptuous attitude of the States towards the Phillipines, but you're right, Cubans are whiter and that could explain their slightly better treatment.
I had a great US History II teacher, and we actually ran a debate on the issue of what to do with the Phillipines, playing characters from the times. I got a greatly amusing one- I forget his name, but he was against occupying the Phillipines on the grounds that they would eventually become a State. Furthermore, it would be impossible to cleanse the Phillipines of the brown inhabitants as thoroughly as the US had the Indians, and besides, no proper Anglo-Saxon could stand the climate or ever want to settle there. Plus, there were a lot of Filipinos! We'd have the nightmare of unfit savages getting elected to the House of Represenatives and overturning our democracy. Best to keep the nation pure and not take the territory.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
MichaeltheGreat
|
|
Apolyton Grand Executioner
|
 |
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
'The withdrawal of Filipino troops, as announced by the Department of Foreign Affairs, impoverishes the leadership of President Arroyo and the credibility of the Philippines in the world," the Manila Times said in an editorial.
It noted that no other country involved in Iraq had yet yielded to hostage takers -- an act it said would not make Filipinos or Iraqis any safer.
"The repercussions could affect long-term relations between Manila and its allies, in terms of military assistance, security cooperation and trade investments," it said. ' |
So I take it the next Washington Post editorial critical of a Bush policy decision should be taken as a factual assessment, rather than an editorial?
This had me laughing when it got to the "credibility of the Philippines in the world" - I guess the Phils is a significant regional player, compared to say, the Solomons or Palau, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I don't think much of the rest of the world knows or cares much about the "credibility" of the Philippines.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
lord of the mark
|
 |
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
|
|
Of course the Phillipines is a democracy and has right to pull its troops out (which they were scheduled to do in august anyway). And of course this wont help US-Phillipine relations, though its IMHO unlikely the US will cut support for the Phil. military, since its not in our interests for AbuSayaf/MILF/JI to win. The Philippine decision will not endear them to the govt of Iraq, but thats probably low on their list of priorities. If this is followed by more kidnappings of coalition of the willing personnel, those states probably wont be too pleased either.
Apparently New Zealand and Thailand are scheduled to withdraw in Sept and are likely to do so. No one else is scheduled to do so till after elections in beginning of '05, by which time there should be alot more Iraqi forces available. Meanwhile Australia, Skorea, Georgia, and I think Azerbaijan are all INCREASING forces.
Jordan and Yemen have offered forces (for UN protection) - the Iraqi govt doesnt particulary want forces from a neighboring state, and may decline the Jordanians. They are asking India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, Malaysia, and Morocco for troops however.
Currently the only muslim states in the MNF are the Kazakhs, the Azeris, and of course the Albanians.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Boris Godunov
|
|
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
No, a revolution requires an overthrow and sucession, |
Imran, I already proved you flat-out wrong here. Must you continue to embarrass yourself like this? Here, I'll repeat it.
From Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
"b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed"
You can bury your head in the sand all you want, rant and rave and keep dancing around it, but your little run to the dictionary to be a semantics baby has just hoisted you on your own petard.
quote:
The Filippinos successfully established their own Republic with Aguinaldo as the first president, before being stabbed in the back by the American invaders. |
quote:
So there was a Chechnian revolution and a Southern US revolution? And don't forget the FARC revolution! After all they both said they established their own Republics. |
Can you find me significant sources that refer to these as "revolutions?" I have the Encyclopedia Britannica on my side, in addition to numerous books, which is far more than...well, your own incredulity, which is not a particularly effective, enlightening or interesting source.
quote:
And, of course, the Spanish never renunciated their rule on the Phillipines, but what does that matter in Borisland? |
And this means what as to the definition of revolution? Oh, nothing. Imran, Spain had no effective control of the Philippines by 1898. Aguinaldo had forced them behind the walls of Manila and held the rest of the country. Spain was done, finished, kaput by that point. They had nothing left with which to fight in the region, and could hardly dispatch any sizeable reinforcements.
You're grasping at straws, man. Just admit it...you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:33.
Apolyton Time is 00:33. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
15-07-2004 06:29
to the Philippines 
|