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KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
Thumbs down  Old Post 13-07-2004 05:33 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Philippines bends over and spreads 'em wide Inflate your Upload Space

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/07/1.../delacruz040712

a) As much as I disagreed with the Iraq war, those who supported it have a moral obligation to stick it out now. They invaded the country, destroyed all existing legal, military and political structure and thus must stay until they've gotten Iraq back on its feet

b) You don't negotiate with terrorists. If somebody takes a Canadian hostage I hope the Canadian government has the good sense to do everything to get him back safely except for acceding to the demands of his kidnapers

to the Philippines

Harry Tuttle is offline Harry Tuttle

Prince
of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 05:35
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Yeah, this is a bunch of bull. Have they made these same concessions to the muslim terrorists in their country? The same ones the U.S. has sent over troops and observers to help contain?

Space05us is offline Space05us
King

Nov 2001
time: 17:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 05:39
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quote:
BAGHDAD - The Philippines said it would withdraw its peacekeeping force from Iraq "as soon as possible," in accordance with the demands of the extremist kidnappers of a national citizen, Angelo dela Cruz.

Philippine Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs Rafael Seguis read the statement for broadcast on Al-Jazeera, the Arab-language satellite television station, late Monday evening.


Relatives and neighbors continue their prayer vigil outside the house of Filipino hostage Angelo dela Cruz
(AP PHOTO)
It was unclear, however, whether the troops would leave any earlier than than the already scheduled pullout date of August 20.


Seguis also appealed to the abductors' humanity.

"I appeal to you and to your kind hearts as Muslims to please release Angelo dela Cruz so that he can return to his family and children," he said.

After originally vowing to "not bow to terrorist blackmail," the Philippine government made its apparent about-face as the Tuesday deadline set by the abductors loomed.

The kidnappers – a group calling itself Khaled Bin Al-Walid Squadrons, part of the Islamic Army of Iraq – on Sunday said they would kill dela Cruz if the Philippines did not pull its force out of Iraq by July 20.

The Philippines has 51 soldiers, police officers and health workers on a humanitarian mission in Iraq.

Manila originally said it would not extend the mandate of its force past August 20, after dela Cruz appeared last Wednesday in a televised video begging his government to withdraw its soldiers.

The country has stopped the deployment of its nationals in any capacity in Iraq. Some 4,100 Filipinos are believed to be working in U.S. military bases in Iraq as cooks and maintenance technicians.

Dela Cruz, a 46 year-old truck driver, was abducted some time around July 7


at least paste the article in your first post, some of us are lazy you know.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 05:50
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Apparently years of Spanish influence on the Phillipines had a greater effect on that country's psyche than I had thought.

MosesPresley is offline MosesPresley
Warlord

Dec 1999
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 05:59 Visit MosesPresley's homepage!
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This is what happens when you pay for your coalition members participation instead of using loyal old allies. You get what you pay for.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:08
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to Krazyhorse.

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:09
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I didn't see anything about this in the Manila Times...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:17 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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it would also be interesting to note that unlike canada, japan, or korea, the philippines has a islamic insurgent group within its own borders.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:30
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What a bunch of cowards. This just feeds the fire.

Timexwatch is offline Timexwatch
King
Columbia Heights, Washington D.C.
Jul 1999
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:32
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How long until Abu Sayaff et. al. take a group of Filipinos or Foreigners hostage and demand something like the withdrawl of troops from Mindinao?

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:33
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I don't buy this.

Rufus T. Firefly is offline Rufus T. Firefly
Prince
is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
it would also be interesting to note that unlike canada, japan, or korea, the philippines has a islamic insurgent group within its own borders.


Yep, and I'm sure the Islamicists won't draw any lessons from this.

But don't worry about our interests in the Philippines. All we're doing right now is sending military advisors to the jungles of Southeast Asia in order to help the local government contain a well-organized, popular guerrilla uprising. What could possibly go wrong there?

Suddenly moving to Manila next month...as an American diplomat...has lost just a bit of it's appeal.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:36
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CNN is reporting the same, Lancer:

quote:
Source: Abductors promise to release Filipino hostage
Monday, July 12, 2004 Posted: 9:09 PM EDT (0109 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A source in the Philippine embassy in Baghdad said Monday that abductors holding a Filipino truck driver have promised to release him Tuesday. It was not clear how that message was conveyed.

The news came moments after the Philippine government said it would withdraw its 50-member humanitarian force from Iraq "as soon as possible" to save the life of Angelo de la Cruz, a 46-year-old father of eight....


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:37
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Are these kidnappers kind of stupid or what, I mean you're getting these 'we were leaving anyway in few months, now we leave earlier'... ???!!

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:41
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CNN? I'll wait for someone reliable like FOX.



The reason I don't buy this is that the Philippines have been fighting moslem insurgants forever. They do occasionally cut a deal but the fighting starts up again sooner or later. Also Arroyo is tight with Bush and just won reelection.

Doesn't make sense.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 06:49
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Lancer, I'm there with you.. there's that abu sayef or what ever they call themselves, kidnapping people on regular basis, in the jungle they keep them for ages, we had a case where two of our citizens where kept hostage for a LONG time and they had many other nationalities too, basically they said the made contact with the army every now and then, however it seems to me as if they had cut a deal in terms of not ever getting beat by the army. There's no decisiveness.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 07:02 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
CNN is reporting the same, Lancer:

quote:
Source: Abductors promise to release Filipino hostage
Monday, July 12, 2004 Posted: 9:09 PM EDT (0109 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A source in the Philippine embassy in Baghdad said Monday that abductors holding a Filipino truck driver have promised to release him Tuesday. It was not clear how that message was conveyed.

The news came moments after the Philippine government said it would withdraw its 50-member humanitarian force from Iraq "as soon as possible" to save the life of Angelo de la Cruz, a 46-year-old father of eight....


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html


I trust CNN less to get its facts straight than I do the CBC.

A lot less, actually.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 07:03
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Note that I was talking to Lancer.

No offense, Lancer, old buddy.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 07:09
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This thread title is a slur against catamites.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 07:58 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Timexwatch
How long until Abu Sayaff et. al. take a group of Filipinos or Foreigners hostage and demand something like the withdrawl of troops from Mindinao?


Yeah this makes absolutley no sense whatsover


You guys remember who started this whole beheading people and put it on tape to make demands?

ABU SAYEFF!!!!!!!!

They were chopping heads off off people years before Al Queda did 9/11

So this whole thing strikes me as so odd, as Filipinos have been dealing with this thing, as Lancer said, "forever."

I fear the long term effects of this.

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Apparently years of Spanish influence on the Phillipines had a greater effect on that country's psyche than I had thought.


Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:13
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quote:
This is what happens when you pay for your coalition members participation instead of using loyal old allies.


Do you have any clue about history in the slightest or are you, once again, talking out of your ass? The Phillipines ARE a loyal old ally. Look at Fillipino-US relations after the Spanish-American War and Aguinaldo's revolt. In particular focus on how American colonial rule treated the Filipinos as equals, easy and peaceful independance, and World War II.

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Apparently years of Spanish influence on the Phillipines had a greater effect on that country's psyche than I had thought.


Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:32
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Imran, "benevolent assimilation" is highly mythologized in many respects. The Philippine colony wasn't treated as an equal, there was a tremendous amount of racism, and the "revolt" was a full-scale revolution. At least 30,000 Filipino's died in it, in addition to over 4000 Americans. And it was one that enjoyed popular support until the largescale losses and political fragmentation of the Filipinos led to capitulation with a vastly better-armed American occupying force.

I suggest:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...632107?v=glance

And

http://www.wooster.edu/history/jgates/book-ch3.html

The best thing that ever happened for Filippino-American relations was WW2, because the brutality of the IJA made them long for the good old days of merely being forcibly converted to Christianity rather than mass murdered on a nightmarish scale. The American occupation wasn't at all brutal or particularly repressive, but it wasn't skittles and beer.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 13-07-2004 at 08:41

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:39 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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While that much is true, their treatment was far better than it would have been had it been left to the Spanish or Japanese. The only other powers available to secure it were France and Britain, and even those two countries were still doing all sorts of terrible imperialist things.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:44
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But the point is, calling relations pre-1941 as an example of "loyalty" is preposterous. They were an occupied colony that had been forcibly subjugated by a bloody war. Conquered territories aren't allies.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:46 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Boris:

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:47
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Ted:

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:50
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quote:
While that much is true, their treatment was far better than it would have been had it been left to the Spanish or Japanese.

Well the Spanish didn't have the capacity to treat the Philippines to much of anything...

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
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time: 21:33
  Old Post 13-07-2004 08:53 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Actually I take what I said back.

Your characterization of the American occupation of the Phillipines is UTTER CRAP.

Not only that it is refuted by the article you posted!

The article shows a balanced look at the war and praises the US Army and it's occupation leadership for winning over the population by improving their lives and giving them security.

It shows that many of the texts written showing the Army as scorched earth, terror occupiers was written by those who were anti-imperialists.

quote:

Considerable evidence exists, however, to support the argument that atrocious acts of war, for all their widespread publicity, were neither the major nor the most important feature of the army's approach to pacification, as the leaders of the Philippine revolution recognized at the time. They feared what they called the army's "policy of attraction," the term used to describe such army activities as the establishment of schools, municipal governments, and public works projects. The leaders of the revolution feared that the Americans would succeed in winning Filipino acceptance of American rule through such an enlightened policy, and many guerrilla leaders ordered acts of terrorism against their own people in an attempt to counter it. Terror, however, did not prevent all Filipinos from collaborating with the Americans as the army created a positive image of the benefits of colonial rule by the reforms implemented in the occupied towns.

The reform orientation of the army's leaders, not brutality, was the most significant element in the American approach to pacification. Literally from the moment they occupied Manila, American officers had begun efforts to reform the city's government and improve the lives of the people in their charge, initiating their work at a time when many of them assumed that the United States would not be retaining the islands. Later, as tension between the Americans and the Filipino revolutionaries mounted, General E. S. Otis, the second commander of the expeditionary force, hoped that many of the reforms implemented by his military government would obtain Filipino acceptance of American rule and avoid war by demonstrating the sincerity of McKinley's pronouncements stressing America's benevolent intentions in the islands. After hostilities began, Otis continued in his belief that enlightened government was a more important tool of pacification than forceful military operations. Even when condemned by some of his own men for being too cautious, Otis persisted in a policy of pacification emphasizing good works instead of more draconian measures, leading one correspondent to remark that the Americans were "humane to the point of military weakness."

A number of officers shared the General's views, and as units of the army occupied territory outside of Manila, commanders organized public schools, municipal governments, public health measures, and many other projects with a reform orientation. General Arthur MacArthur, who succeeded Otis in May 1900, continued the commitment to a pacification policy relying upon the good works of the military government to bring an end to the war by convincing Filipinos that an American colonial government would have a sincere interest in their welfare and could be trusted. MacArthur consistently rejected the recommendations of those subordinates who urged him to adopt a highly repressive policy, even after he concluded that some harsher measures would be needed to break the link between the guerrillas and their noncombatant supporters. Fortunately for MacArthur, a number of officers in the field took a similar view, and during even the most frustrating period of the guerrilla war, at a time when some Americans were engaging in deplorable acts of brutality, others continued the reform-oriented work of the military government

 
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