04-08-2004 06:40									#91
	Put an end to popups!

But there is

It's called Sparta

	04-08-2004 06:43									#92
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The fact that the Hive has applied physics is doubly bad for us because if the other human factions suspect that we are going to invade them, they can all just contact Yang and buy off applied physics from him. Then, since they all have info networks, they could immediately switch research to NLmath and have impact weapons within 5-10 years.

	04-08-2004 07:56									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

But if they don't have Applied Physics, they have no way of knowing that Yang has (unless they met a 1-2-1 scout, which I doubt (almost certainly if they met anyone it was a Hive 1-1-1 or else they popped the commlink)

(But, of course, the Angels might already have him infiltrated!!)

None of the others have flex, so they don't have a gunfoil - the best they'd have is a slow 2 mp Transport. Gaians can't have an IoD yet, 'cos they can't capture one until they get a gunfoil

(We only know Yang has AP 'cos our foil peeked into the base while it was alongside and saw the garrsion exercising there)

	04-08-2004 08:02									#94
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: 2101: simultaneous founding of 2 bases (so population is 2)

This is probably obvious to you Googlie, but does this not mean that they started on a river tile? Which implies that they did have a bundle of energy in the beginning. Just stating the obvious here.

quote: 2116: pop grows to 4, so we assume a 3rd base founded (closelu spaced as per the first 2)

Same here, there ought to be a lot of rivers in Rozeland. You can't move a pod out and colonise the square right next to the base.

	04-08-2004 08:18									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's exactly what we are surmising (either they started on a river tile, or popped a pod with their starting scout - or probe team - that created a river, then they moved their 2nd CP two tiles and founded on its 3rd mp)

Same with base # 3 - same river, just moved the new CP in the opposite direction 2 tiles, then founded the base

	04-08-2004 08:19									#96
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

topographical map of Chiron from a distance:

Attachment: chiron from space.jpg
This has been downloaded 39 time(s).

	04-08-2004 08:35									#97
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Which leads me to wonder ......................

Has Buster used the classic CMN set up that gives every human faction equal access to 2 AI factions and 2 other human factions, no matter which direction they go?

See below (you have to imagine the scrolling map, and it's not quite to scale!!):

Attachment: cmn musings.jpg
This has been downloaded 40 time(s).

	04-08-2004 09:23									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's a possibility. I could see this being the case, as it seems to benefit each faction:

Morganites are out of the way, tucked in a little corner, suitable for building.

Gaians are also somewhat tucked away.

Data Angels are out in the middle a little bit, which would give them many probing targets.

We are out in the middle a little bit, giving us some good targets to invade (although the one target we can't get to - Morgan - is the one that would have the greatest rewards, probably.)

Attachment: chiron from space 2 version.jpg
This has been downloaded 36 time(s).

	04-08-2004 10:10									#99
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here are my estimations of how many tiles we would have to traverse by sea to invade each position:

NW (assumed Gaian) position: 20-25 tiles
Transport foil turns: 7-10, depending on amount of fungus
Cruiser Transport turns: 5-7, depending on amount of fungus
Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 3-5 turns, depending on amount of fungus
Elite Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 3-4 turns

Hive position: Approx. 15 tiles
Transport foil turns: 5-7, depending on where we want to invade, fungus, etc.
Cruiser Transport: 3-5 turns
Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 2-4
Elite Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 2-3

SW (assumed Morganite) position: 30-40 tiles
Transport foil: 10-17
Cruiser Transport: 6-10
Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 5-8
Elite Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 4-7

South (assumed Data Angels position: 30-40 tiles
Same as Morgan

SE (assumed Peacekeeper) position: 20-30 tiles
Transport foil: 7-13 turns
Cruiser Transport: 4-7 turns
Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 3-5 turns
Elite Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 3-4 turns

NE (assumed University) position: 15-20 tiles
Transport foil: 5-8 turns
Cruiser Transport: 3-5 turns
Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 3-4 turns
Elite Cruiser Transport w/MCC: 2-3 turns

Note: If we build a coastal base on the southern part of our continet later on, the distance to the Hive, Peacekeepers, Data Angels, and Morganites would be reduced quite a bit.

Attachment: chiron from space battle plans.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	04-08-2004 10:11									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmm - I'm not sure

If I were setting it up I'd put distance between Morgan and Gaians, expecting roleplay conflict between those competing ideologies. Who better than the Hive to separate them

I'd likewise separate Sparta and the PK's (generally considered to be, respectively, the strongest and the weakest military factions

Then it's more a case of giving the Angels decent probe access to the PKs and the Uni, while buffering them somewhat from Sparta.

So i think this might be the set-up I'd use (all good speculative fun - the final picture will prolly look nothing like either of us imagine!!)

Attachment: locations.jpg
This has been downloaded 32 time(s).

Last edited by Googlie on 04-08-2004 at 10:18

	04-08-2004 10:15									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Whatever the set-up, it clearly demonstrates that we need a coastal base on our eastern seaboard to get a gunfoil or foil probe up and running east

Invincible will be able to follow the Hive eastern coastling south and we'll see soon enough whether Angels or Gaians (or whomsoever) is there south of the Hive

	04-08-2004 10:26									#102
	Increase Your PM Length

Oooh, I sure like your estimation a lot! Morganites and University on either side, what more could one ask for? I wonder though, wouldn't the creators put the University and Peacekeepers together, as the Peacekeepers are submissive to Uni?

Edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure that the human factions are at the four corners of Yang. Didn't one of the CMN's say something to the effect of, "Yang will be the first one everyone meets."?

Yeah, who knows what it's really like. This is just blind speculation, for the most part.

Last edited by Zeiter on 04-08-2004 at 10:32

	04-08-2004 18:11									#103
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

LOL - but speculation is fun

And the more I look at how I'd have set it up, and then if we shift the focus of my above suggestion to the Angels - giving the "probe faction" access to nearly everyone, it'd look like this (see map below):

Angels in the center

Morgan with a natural ally (Uni) and a couple of threats (Hive and Sparta)

Sparta with a threat (Hive ) and a couple of targets (Morgan and Uni) and possible allies in Gaians and Angels

Gaians with potential allies (PK's and Angels) and a couple of threats (Hive and Sparta), but removed from Morgan by the buffer Hive

And by slaving Zak/Lal he's created a counter bloc to the Hive (they don't need to be physically close - in fact, it's more effective if they are separated)

So it'd look like this, if Ahgels-centric:

Attachment: musings.jpg
This has been downloaded 39 time(s).

	04-08-2004 20:24									#104
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Scenario 4: Morgan is our early target, before they get too strong. Utilize potential allies (such as Yang, or the other 2 human factions) as necessary, then discard when done

I favor this one. I think we should buy the comlink to the Angels off Yang, and try to ally with the them against the Morgans. The Angels will be happy we aren't attacking them (we could even threaten them) and should be happy that we help them punch Morgan around a bit.

It is perhaps not likely that they will assist us by sending troops, but they might share some tech with us, and maybe even help defend our interests with their probes? Also, they could know where the Morgans actually are ...

Anyway, we should do a Poll about this methinks ...

	05-08-2004 05:13									#105
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

an alliance with the angels would be very favourable. we have the brawn, and they can steal the brains.

We already know we can't outbuild the other factions. There is no way to do it. Conquering in the near future is not likely from what we now know. We could start building transports and troops now I suppose. If we are going to do that, then now is the time. We won't know our target- we'd be sailing blindly towards our destination. Risky venture.

Allying with someone who could provide us with research to get our military up to date would be most useful. In return we would provide them with a military defense (either by gifting or actually stationing our troops in their territory). I like this scenario because it gives us time.

If we don't do something, we will fall behind. That's my opinion.

	05-08-2004 05:38									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

An Angel alliance sounds good. Their team, from a metagame view point, isn't exactly the most vibrant or strongest around, at least as far as roleplay is concerned. This may give us a certain psychological edge to use as well: we could offer our strategic know-how to them as well as more material goods like direct military protection. Their lack of RP also means that there is the least tension between our two factions - OTOH, that plays for the Morganites and Gaians as well.

I do wonder how the Angels will take it - they will probably surmise that if the two of us will dominate the rest of Planet, they will be the ones in trouble (unless co-operative victory is on, IIRC it is not).

We should be careful about this. If we appear too desperate they'll get a whiff of it - I support a rather aggressive posture that'll make them feel relieved when we quietly sneak the pact option in. It would require a good deal of tact and cunning though.

	05-08-2004 06:43									#107
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia We should be careful about this. If we appear too desperate they'll get a whiff of it - I support a rather aggressive posture that'll make them feel relieved when we quietly sneak the pact option in. It would require a good deal of tact and cunning though.

And who better than the venerable Captain Kassiopeia (who is twiddling his thumbs in garrison duty at the moment anyway!!) aided and abetted as needed by Major GeneralTacticus?

	05-08-2004 07:06									#108
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, we don't want to seem desparate. They should be feeling overwhelming relief for the fact that we aren't attacking them when we offer a pact. And, of course, there should be an expiration date - perhaps 20 years? If we stipulate it for too long, they may feel that we are being pushy. However, if we stipulate the length of the pact as too short, they'll think it's just a cheap ploy to get a peek at their datalinks and exploit them for tech. We need to make it very clear to them what they have to gain, as well as what we have to gain by this. We also need to convince them of why allying with us would be any better than, say, Morgan, who will probaby we stronger than us. And finally, I think we should slowly ease up to it. Again, if we ask for a pact on first contact, that will reek of desperation. We need to have about 5-10 years of favorable relations first so that both parties have adequate trust in each other.

	05-08-2004 07:20									#109
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: And who better than the venerable Captain Kassiopeia (who is twiddling his thumbs in garrison duty at the moment anyway!!) aided and abetted as needed by Major GeneralTacticus?

Not that I have anything against twiddling my thumbs.

quote: And, of course, there should be an expiration date - perhaps 20 years?

Interesting suggestion. I am not sure if mention of an expiration date will win over the hearts of the Datatechian. Be it 20, or 200 turns, their alarm will ring, and for a good reason. Altogether insinuating that it's clearly a temporary solution will put our attempts in jeopardy. Then again, would a frank and honest approach be a better idea? Is it not obvious that the pact will not be indefinite?

quote: We also need to convince them of why allying with us would be any better than, say, Morgan, who will probaby be stronger than us.

That's imperative. I believe that we should use Morgan's police rating to his disadvantage. Morgan may provide immaterial help like credits and technology, but he can't provide the hardware. Add the fact that we're the most military-geared human faction on Planet, and we should be a deterrent on our own might. So, perhaps we suggest to them:

We'll give you a good deterrent to use against anyone wanting to make a grab for you, and in exchange we'll just help ourselves to a few tech here and there. And on top of that, if anyone attacks you, we'll come to your defence - after all, your wellbeing with your elite probes is equally important to us. And the better our weapons are, the higher your chances of survival are. It would be a jackpot if they are in the middle of the map - they can reach anyone easily, but so can everyone else reach them.

We should also note that Morgan might not be a good idea for a pactmate: they'd be practically submissives to the Morganites who have no specific need for their special abilities, and who can provide nothing tangible in return - whereas we can help them as equal partners,with something they themselves can not reach that easily, military strength.

Besides, an alliance between a strong Morgan and any other human faction is bound to become a target of a grand alliance of some kind. It's the nature of the game, the weak gang up on the strong - hence it's a bad idea to be strong, at least until you can become so strong that the rest of the world is a trifle matter.

Now I just need to figure out why the Gaians are poor pactmates.

quote: And finally, I think we should slowly ease up to it. Again, if we ask for a pact on first contact, that will reek of desperation. We need to have about 5-10 years of favorable relations first so that both parties have adequate trust in each other.

Exactly. Not in the first contact, after a while of hobnobbing at the respective embassies.

	05-08-2004 07:27									#110
	Increase the size of your Attachments

However, we really need to have a contingency plan in case the Angels refuse. I see that as a distinct possibility: a refusal may result from anything from sheer inherent distrust to internal struggle.

There was a succesful alliance in ACDG2 was there not? We should do our best to draw parallels between the Spartan-Angel union and that one.

Perhaps we should continue this discussion in the Foreign Office?

	05-08-2004 07:39									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

we could try to ally with the gaians as a contingency . They would be more likely to agree I would think. But the benefits to each of us would be less. But it's something to consider if they are close. either that, or conquer them

	05-08-2004 07:49									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hmm, good idea. We should formulate a Plan B, a similar exercise in the art of persuasion, but directed at the Gaians. Figuring out the weaknesses of their team as a pactmate would be a good basis to structure some thoughts on how to convince them that a Gaian-Spartan pact would be in their best interests. The RP angle makes me go hmmm, though. They are a staunchly pacifist faction, perhaps try to plead to their sensibility and remind them that they will need military mettle sooner or later, and be it sooner, they should have our brawn backing them up?

We need to be extremely careful with interfactional communications though. If the Gaians and Angels have contact, word of our botched attempt at a pact may carry over to the other team. On a more worrying note, if the Gaians and Angels have contact, there is a huge risk that the two of them have allied, leaving us all alone against the Hive and Morgan Industries. That is the worst-case scenario, and I'd like us to figure out a contingency plan for that one as well.

	05-08-2004 08:04									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*Devious*:

Borrow money from Yang

Bribe Yang to attack the Gaians

Offer to pact with the Gaians and come to their aid against Yang (who we'd eventually battle with anyway)

Earn the undying gratitude of the Gaians

	05-08-2004 08:12									#114
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Wow. If we managed to pull that off it'd be the stuff of legends. We just need to make sure we can pull it off before doing anything stupid.

	05-08-2004 08:15									#115
	Put an end to popups!

Well, we could always ally with Morgan...no, no, scratch that idea. It's far too frightening to even consider.

In case it ends up being Morgan vs. DA/Gaians vs. Spartans, then we could try allying with Zakharov, as it is likely that we'll be running knowledge later on. Or we could just keep to ourselves for a little bit, and then when the Morganites and DA/Gaian axis inevitably get into a war, we capitalize on the opportunity and invade Morgan, like I suggested in another thread.

	05-08-2004 08:16									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Evil. I like.

	05-08-2004 08:19									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That is, if the Angel/Gaian axis does clash first with the Morganites. The fact that they might have dollar signs in their eyes, and since we are the Spartans, I suppose the Morgans would be the primary target.

Contacting Zak would be good, if we manage to get off on a high note with him we could be able to do some serious tech trade with him.

I think allying with Morgan would be just asking for trouble. They'd benefit immensely from the trade while we'd be left with the leftovers, and we'd make for a primary target, effectively forcing a Gaian/Angel axis. However, we can't forego that possibility entirely: I and AndiD of Morgan Industries are doing pretty cozy in WWAW.

	05-08-2004 08:46									#118
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm - maybe we don't need to be evil

I carried on in the sim with some yang interchanges - and here's waht he did as soon as I went to the editor and gave him Dee's commlink:

Attachment: yang-dee.jpg
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	05-08-2004 08:47									#119
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oooooh, that plan is soooo genius. I bet, if we did that, when the private forums were opened up at the end of this game, everybody's jaws would drop to the floor.

Although I have a question: When you try to get an AI to do a joint attack on an enemy, do you have to be at war with that faction or not?

Anyway, I'm for it all the way.

And don't we have to get the Gaian commlink first before we can suggest a joint attack to Yang?

Edit: Oooh, a Spartan/Yang axis, and no bribing required! That could also be another option. But then we'd have to abandon our probe raping plans for Yang.

	05-08-2004 08:49									#120
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agreed, and signed the pact, whereupon he sold me Industrial Base and Doc Loyalty ( cost me 50 ec's each) then bought Flex from me for 100, and then, after I whined, gifted me Social Psych and Secrets.