05-08-2004 08:50									#121
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Holy smokes! That would be a most interesting thing to execute. First off, the pact would make us all the more close, and it'd mean backstabbing Yang would be all the more easy. Add to that the fact that Yang would be mostly doing the work for us. However, there is the danger that the Gaians, being humans, could outwit Yang and gobbel up his empire at our expense. That would, well, suck. It would be a worthy maneuvre to make him weaker and then get him with his pants down in a two-front war.

It is a possibility worth pondering over.

I am afraid we will have to go vendetta on the Gaians to usher Yang after them. And that would have very far-fetching consequences.

Edit: Googlie: The Gaian vendetta would almost be worth all that tech alone. Good god, if we managed to get that friendly with Yang... good god. Two words: Unholy Alliance.

	05-08-2004 08:54									#122
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Okay, now just let that pod near SCC Invincible be a Gaian commlink pod...

Edit: Just what is it about the Gaians that the Hive wants to declare war on them so badly? I'd estimate that this sort of thing happens in about 80% of my SP games, where Yang either unilaterally invades Deidre, or comes asking me for a joint attack. It's not like they have opposing ideaoligies or anything. Wierd.

I have a question: were any of the AI's in the last ACDG as powerful as this game's Yang? And if so, did any of the teams try to ally with them?

Last edited by Zeiter on 05-08-2004 at 08:59

	05-08-2004 09:00									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Although I have a question: When you try to get an AI to do a joint attack on an enemy, do you have to be at war with that faction or not? And don't we have to get the Gaian commlink first before we can suggest a joint attack to Yang?

No, we don't need to be at war already, and yes, we do need their commlink (asking him to declare war never came up as an option when I didn't have her commlink, but did after I edited it to give me it)

But he needs to have land access to their bases (or needs doc flex)

But this early in the game it's cheap!!

	05-08-2004 09:00									#124
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Uh, I meant, of course we can agree to a joint vendetta with Yang without a contact with the poor victim. I'm not sure about whether we need to have contact with them to usher only him at them - I think that Yang wouldn't be too receptive if we suggested that only he take up the war effort - in fact, is that even possible? What I tried to say is, if we want Yang to attack them, we most likely will have to vendetta them too.

Edit: is that 25 credits really for an isolated vendetta between him and the Gaians?

	05-08-2004 09:06									#125
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Would it be possible for us to get Yang to declare war on the Gaians, but ourselves stay out of the war completely, with no vendetta against the Gaians, and then go to the Gaians and Pact with them, and then backstab Yang?

	05-08-2004 09:07									#126
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Yeah - we pay, and don't even need ourselves to declare vendetta!! (But it wasn't in this iteration of the sim that he gave all the techs - that one was after we'd agreed to join him in vendetta)

But............... we could get him to declare V, then offer a pact, get the techs, then call up the Gaians and say that we're being bribed by Yang to attack them, and how would they like to gift us some techs/units/ filthy lucre to help them stave off a Hive attack

That would be truly despicable

wouldn't it?

	05-08-2004 09:14									#127
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Ha! And I thought Yang was ruthless. My Finnish evilness is being overshadowed by you - but I think it's more because you have much more information on the situation than I do. At least that's what'll help me sleep tonight.

I'll say, that sort of maneuvre would be brilliant. First off, it'd latch the Gaians in a death struggle with Yang. Second, it'd mean Yang would be that much less likely to be bribed by someone else to attack us. Third, the spoils would be well worth it.

Of course, it should not leak out under any circumstances. The results would be disasterous; the pact with Yang would be the only one we'll ever have.

What sort of risks are there, aside the remote chance of our ploy being blown into the open?

I think we need to get some more info on things though. If the Gaians and Angels are being all touchy-feely, that changes the scenario a bit.

I'm all for that plan though - if we don't do it, I have a feeling that someone else will.

	05-08-2004 09:20									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I have a question: were any of the AI's in the last ACDG as powerful as this game's Yang? And if so, did any of the teams try to ally with them?

Well, they should have been.

I set it up, and had the Believers as submissivv to the Angels (we only had 2 AI factions). I started both off with 3 pre-built bases

I gave the Angels infiltration on everyone, so that they'd keep up tech-wise, and had intended to have the believers be their muscle, but I screwed up in the order in which I set the base governors (every subsequent base follows the governor's orders of the last base they were set at - I forgot that.

So I set the last base as explore, and blocked off most units, so all new bases produced a scout then endless colony pod.

By mid game The B's had 20 colony pods all milling around their landmass, with no place to establish new bases, and the stupid AI doesn't think to put CPs on trannies and send them across the world.

So they were easy prey for the CyCon

	05-08-2004 09:39									#129
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LOL - he's really eager to attack Morgan (here's what happens when I give myself Morgan's commlink, then call Yang up and ask him to be the bully boy:

Attachment: yangattacksmorgan.jpg
This has been downloaded 35 time(s).

	05-08-2004 09:44									#130
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So this is uncharted ACDG territory, having an AI that is strong enough to make a worthy pactmate. And yes, I'm almost sure that if we don't hatch this scheme soon, someone else will. Which leaves me wondering: will they suspect the trick we've pulled, as it might have been just what they were going to do? But they'll have no way to prove it, so it won't matter even if they do have some suspicions.

Edit: ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

Hey, I have an idea: Try running the simulator as Morgan or one of the others, and see how much it would cost to get him to attack the Spartans.

	05-08-2004 09:45									#131
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Damn, I am most intrigued by the prospect of using the strongest kid on the block as our henchman. It's nothing like the Spartan Way, but what the hey.

	05-08-2004 09:47									#132
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quote: And yes, I'm almost sure that if we don't hatch this scheme soon, someone else will. Which leaves me wondering: will they suspect the trick we've pulled, as it might have been just what they were going to do? But they'll have no way to prove it, so it won't matter even if they do have some suspicions.

It's also possible it hasn't occurred to them, yet, and never will. The Hive is known for its aggressiveness, so I don't think the first thing the Gaians would ask when Yang comes knocking on their door would be "who told him to do THAT?". I'm placing my money on "My god, what are we going to do?" We'd just be happily profiting from it on the side. *sniff* We'd make old Nwabudike proud.

	05-08-2004 09:53									#133
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of course, when we finally do probe Yang - we can frame the Angels

(Unlike in SP games, the "framed" isn't given any notification that X faction has framed them - they just get the "You shall pay for your damned meddling" irate outburst from the probed party)

So we'll have Yang fighting everyone while we sit back and chuckle !!

	05-08-2004 09:56									#134
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So, who do we want Yang to go after? Gaians for 25 ECs? Morganites for free? If we told Yang to go after Morgan, we could approach the Morganites and say something like:

Edit:

"It's gonna cost you:
Ind base
Ind Econ
IA
Biogen
Any other techs Morgan has? Yang or the Data Angels might have traded him something by now.

I think we could stand much to gain from hatching this scheme against either of them, Morgan or the Gaians. Heehee, all of this plotting is making me giddy!

Edit: So wait, even if the framing isn't successful, nobody finds out about the framing?

Last edited by Zeiter on 05-08-2004 at 10:27

	05-08-2004 10:02									#135
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Thing is, if we go asking them for some "payment" to help them out, we will have to

1) actually help them out! We'll have to engage Yang too. He'll be caught in a two-front war, yes, but are we ready to face him quite yet? But we have time against us - someone else might beat us to the punch.

2) Not under any circumstances make the proposition right after the vendetta has begun. The reasons should be obvious, this needs to be a stealthy job.

I'd be inclined for this approach:

1. Make Yang declare vendetta on the Gaians and perhaps the Morganites too.
2. Contact the Angels, tell them that Yang is on a rampage that the two of us should join forces to shrug off the onslaught.

Between 1. and 2. we could form a pact with Yang - we'd quaintly explain to anyone interested that we did it to ensure that he won't be as trigger happy with us as with the others.

	05-08-2004 10:04									#136
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It's fun doing it, but in reality there are some preconditions (let's s ay we ask Yang to attack Morgan):

• we need Morgan's commlink
  
• Yang needs land access to Morgan (or Flex - and if he lacks it, are we prepared to trade/sell him it)
  
• Yang needs not to be Treatied or pacted with Morgan
  
• The sim may not be replicated in the real game (eg Morgan is stronger militarily, so yang asks for 100 ec's, or whatever)
  
• If he asks for ec's, we need some in Treasury to pay the bribe

	05-08-2004 10:05									#137
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quote: Edit: So wait, even if the framing isn't successful, nobody finds out about the framing?

But what if it isn't successful? Is it a risk? A big one?

	05-08-2004 10:07									#138
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Yeah, if we immediately went to the Morganites and demanded some compensation for help, that would be like a bright red neon sign saying "WE'RE SCAMMING YOU!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!"

	05-08-2004 10:12									#139
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quote: Yang needs land access to Morgan (or Flex - and if he lacks it, are we prepared to trade/sell him it)

I'm guessing the way the CMNs designed the map was to have Yang in the middle of the 4 humans with a little isthmus connecting all of the continents, as well as straits to pass through the isthmuses. So odds are, Yang has at least some land access to everyone, although if they are able to gain a foothold at the isthmus and create a chokehold or killing zone, then Yang's threat would be greatly dimished.

quote: 1. Make Yang declare vendetta on the Gaians and perhaps the Morganites too. 2. Contact the Angels, tell them that Yang is on a rampage that the two of us should join forces to shrug off the onslaught. Between 1. and 2. we could form a pact with Yang - we'd quaintly explain to anyone interested that we did it to ensure that he won't be as trigger happy with us as with the others.

I like it! Although I could foresee some suspicion stemming from us allying with Yang. Even with the most clever propaganda, that would still seem a little...shady.

	05-08-2004 10:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter So wait, even if the framing isn't successful, nobody finds out about the framing?

if the framing isn't successful, then Yang knows it was us, and would prolly declare Vendetta - it'd be the same as a regular successful - or bungled - probe job

But if our probes are produced at SC2, (with +2 morale) then they prolly would be successful

(And is our first probe action going to be stealtech, or infiltrate Yang? - I suggest the latter)

	05-08-2004 10:21									#141
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As a rule, I almost always infiltrate first. Unless you can steal something like D:AP, perhaps. But infiltration is a gift that keeps on giving, and the earlier you get it, the more it pays off.

Edit: But wait, don't both parties get informed? That is, assume we probe Yang and try to frame the Data Angels. If it gets botched, won't Yang AND the Data Angels be notified? Yang will be notified of the probe activity, as usual, and the Data Angels will be notified of our attempted framing. At least that's how I thought it worked, although I could be wrong.

	05-08-2004 10:34									#142
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No - that's what I was saying. It's how it works in SP games, but like the probe issue, it's all screwed up in PBEMs

(well, actually, it works as intended in PBEMs - it's the SP game that's screwed. The whole point of framing is that the probed party doesn't know it's you, so can't tell the framed party that you've framed them. That's how it should work, and - prolly by accident - the programmers got it exactly right in PBEMs)

	05-08-2004 10:48									#143
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Ah, so the only downside of trying to frame someone is that the success rate is lower? That's not too bad. But wouldn't that mean that factions will be trying to frame each other left and right? How often was it used in the last ACDG? And what will we do if someone frames us?

Edit: I must say, these are some great ideas you guys have come up with.

On a side note: The turn rates have definitely slowed down now for the Data Angels and the Morganites. All of the last 5 or so turns have been over 10 hours, with some as high as 25 hours, and of course, that one Morgan turn that was like 43 hours long. Perhaps the Morgans and Data Angels are having some heavy correspondence. Perhaps they've checked to see if Yang has anyone else's commlink, and they found that he now has ours, and they are having an ongoing debate over whether to obtain it or not. That would sure be nice, if we ended up not having to pay Yang for their commlinks because they bought it off of Yang with their money.

Last edited by Zeiter on 05-08-2004 at 11:09

	05-08-2004 10:53									#144
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It's actually not used a lot in PBEMs as human players tend to get probe defenses up ASAP, and in most conventional starts there's little to be gained by holding back on vendetta with AI factions.

Only where the AI has been heavily tweaked does a human player think twice about vendetta, and then framing is sometimes used.

I honestly can't remember if it was used by the PEACE in the last game - I think they talked about it but didn't follow through

	05-08-2004 11:21									#145
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Can framing be used with humans? What I mean is, could we, for instance, probe Morgan and frame the Data Angels, or does that not work?

We might want to limit Yang's enemies to only 2 factions, because if we bribe Yang into attacking the Gaians and Morganites, and then probe him and frame the Data Angels, then Yang will be facing a 3 vs. 1 battle. Yang would have to spread his forces thin, which would decrease them threat he posed to each faction, and it could even lead to his downfall and the 3 factions splitting up Yang's territory, while we get left out in the cold. So, for it to be effective, we should probably make a choice: Gaians or Morganites.

And then we need to decide if we are going to side with Yang and reap the enormous tech benefits, or if we are going to act like we don't know what's going on with Yang's warpath and pact with the Gaians/Morganites/Data Angels. I would lean towards the latter. A human ally is much more useful than an AI one, even if that AI faction is much more powerful on the surface. Plus, we can always prabe away all of that tech from Yang, or pact with him briefly and backstab him.

	05-08-2004 12:53									#146
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Re: the various schemes to use the Hive for our benefit - Machiavelli would be proud I think the plan would work for pretty much any of the other factions, although siding with the Hive vs. the Gaians for tech is probably not such a good idea - they go before us in the turn order, IIRC, so there'd be no way to cover up the fact that we instigated the war, and I expect we'd be made to pay for it eventually.

As for which faction to do this to, specifically - I lean towards the Morganites, because:

- It's free.
- They probably have more stuff to offer us for protection.
- They're likely to be militarily weaker, and hence feel more threatened.
- They have virtually no ability to wage war beyond their borders, thus leaving Yang's territory for us.
- If they do decide to go on the offensive, they'll still be less effective than us, and will have to either accept massive Drone Riots or else lose their main financial advantage by shifting from FM to something else.

Thus, we wind up with more gains and a likely a weakened Morgan, making a DA/Morgan axis rather less of a threat.

	05-08-2004 13:17									#147
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quote: - It's free.

Only in the turn sim though. We can't verify that just yet.

quote: - They probably have more stuff to offer us for protection. - They're likely to be militarily weaker, and hence feel more threatened.

Quite true.

quote: - They have virtually no ability to wage war beyond their borders, thus leaving Yang's territory for us. - If they do decide to go on the offensive, they'll still be less effective than us, and will have to either accept massive Drone Riots or else lose their main financial advantage by shifting from FM to something else.

That's a very, very good notion. The danger in a Yang - other human conflict is that Yang starts to get pounded and the loot falls into the wrong hands. Using the Morganites would prevent this.

It does pose the problem of prominence - with a weakened Morgan, and us taking our toll on Yang and Morgan, we will rise up in the powergraph in a not too inconscpicuous way. We'll get noticed, and we'll draw attention. We could end up with a very tricky triple entente vs. us situation on our hands.

	05-08-2004 15:38									#148
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I don't think we'd rise too far up in the powergraphs, we'd just be slowing the others down a bit. And even if we did get powerful, I think how the others reacted would have a lot to do with how we handled, seemed to handle that power. Perhaps some skillful diplomacy and propaganda could keep them fragmented for just long enough until we are ready to launch some major invasions. But I agree, that risk is definitely there.

	05-08-2004 18:28									#149
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Some points re: the simulation (before we get too carried away)

I'm using Maniac's sim - he had a pretty well developed Sparta (replicated our bases, etc) , but had only indicated landing sites for the others

I beefed Yang up to his 17 pops, with a guess as to # bases (I gave him 6)

Then I tried the bribe - the option never came up 'cos I didn't have anyone else's commlink.

My first try to bribe him got nowhere - he had no landmass connection, and din't have flex, so I got the "I can't as I'm nowehere near their territory" speech. So I edited the map, and gave the Gaians a couple of prebuilt bases, then took the commlink, and the bribe was 25 ec's

Gave Yang the commlink as well, and as soon as I opened the line to Yang, he gave his "ecodaft Gaians" spiel, and urged me to join him in attacking them

Knowing that I needed the commlink, I gave myself Morgan's, then set up a Morgan base but didn't put a landbridge to Yang, and then called him up. I tried to bribe, but got the "no access" speach. I then traded flex for ind base, tried the bribe, and got the "cost you 0 credits" reply

(But this might have been different from Dee in that he had only 1 base whereas I'd given the Gaians a couple with scouts in each)

Then I reloaded and this time built the landbridge between Yang and Morgan. For a bribe, now he wanted doc flex, after which he agreed to annihilate those 'bloated capitalists"

I then reloaded and edited his techs, giving him a bunch, and that's when i got all the pact goodies, tech gifts, etc.

Now, (today) as a test I gave him the Angels' commlink, then called him up, and gort the sdame result as with Dee - he wants to enlist my aid in attacking them.

Take away Angels and give him the Uni's - he wants us to join hum in Vendetta against Zak

So the fact that he didn't ask maniac to join in a war against either Morgan or the Angels suggests that they might have treatied with Yang already

EDIT: just tested as I was writing this - even although I edited him to have a treaty with the Gaians, he still immediately I contacted him asked for assistance in fighting them)

So that wouldn't be conclusive evidence

In short - beware tying diplomacy to what we get from a simulation. We know that the coding for human multiplayer games is subtly different from single-player games (from the various readme.txt files issued with the releases) And we don't know that he has all those techs that he was willing to give us (in fact, we do know that Zak has the tech lead - it could be that yang is just on a par with us (or maybe 1 or 2 techs ahead) and his powerchart standing might just be due to population and military)

I'll have a go later today to bring the sim up-to-date (edit the map to replicate what's been revealed and to follow as much as possible the zoomed-out topography for what's not, as well as to give the other factions the bases and techs that we think they have), then run some tests

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 05-08-2004 at 18:33

	05-08-2004 20:17									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie *Devious*: Borrow money from Yang Bribe Yang to attack the Gaians Offer to pact with the Gaians and come to their aid against Yang (who we'd eventually battle with anyway) Earn the undying gratitude of the Gaians

I like the way you think!