15-07-2004 20:05									#91
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If only life was a video game.

	15-07-2004 20:05									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dry I would compare the US to MOO3.

What? The US is the worst nation of all time? Completely devoid of any redeeming qualities? Every living thing in the universe would have a tangibly better existence if it had never existed?

I think comparing the US to MoO3 is going a bit extreme.

	15-07-2004 20:07									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I kind of blame the UK and France more so than the US for many of the dictatorships currently having problems. Also, I am trying to recall any that the US has directly and personally installed themselves.

They are myriad. Latin America is the most pronounced example, but we've had our fingers in the pie in every continent. We only rarely installed the dictator directly, generally preferring to give money, arms, and direction to those who would overthrown their own democracies and then confering legitimacy upon them once they were in power.

	15-07-2004 20:10									#94
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The poll is too simplistic, anyway. I abstained.

	15-07-2004 20:20									#95
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I voted 8. It's really about 7 and a half, but 8 is about right.

Some of the details of the USA I don't like (capital punishment, defence expenditure versus healthcare, Latin American foreign policy) but the main ideals, the core standards of the US, are very admirable.

For comparison - I'd give New Zealand a 10, Australia a 9, and my own country a 6.

quote: Originally posted by Japher I kind of blame the UK and France more so than the US for many of the dictatorships currently having problems. Also, I am trying to recall any that the US has directly and personally installed themselves.

Examples?

Many international boundaries are down to the UK and France, and many of these have caused wars. Fair comment.

But don't forget the world's largest democracy is also partly down to the UK (but mostly down to the Hindus).

	15-07-2004 20:57									#96
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Ten options???? Havent you learned from your enlighted leader: "Either you are with us or you are against us!" There is no 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and all those who have not voted 10 are quite obviously against so we can reduce this poll to 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9 being against US and 10 being for US.

Well so, I can't vote on such a poll because I dont like having just 2 options

	15-07-2004 21:24									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I am trying to recall any that the US has directly and personally installed themselves.

You have to be joking with us in saying you can't think of any dictatorships that the United States had installed?


Does Saddam Huessein ring any bells? In fact, that might be one reason why he is so adamantly unrepetent -- he was a partner with United States at an earlier time.

	15-07-2004 21:29									#98
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quote: I am trying to recall any that the US has directly and personally installed themselves.

Syngman Rhee of skorea was directly and personally installed by the US government.

	15-07-2004 22:52									#99
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I think you couldn't ask for a better country/political system to be the world power. The United States government is filled with checks and balances that really moderate what kind of power the US exerts over itself and the rest of the world.

Imagine if George Bush were PM of Canada and Canada was a world power... with the kind of authority the PM has here, we'd be fighting 10 wars right now and the world would look something like a crater. As crazy as GWB may seem at times, be thankful he's president of the United States and not President of the USSR or some other theoretical, highly centralized, superpower.

	15-07-2004 23:54									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I love my country; I hate my government. 10 for USA 0 for all the politicians

	15-07-2004 23:58									#101
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Imagine if George Bush were PM of Canada and Canada was a world power...

I'm sorry, my imagination isn't quite that powerful.

	16-07-2004 00:10									#102
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I agree; the thought of us electing a ****wit like Dubya is a real stretch.

	16-07-2004 00:31									#103
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I think you couldn't ask for a better country/political system to be the world power. The United States government is filled with checks and balances that really moderate what kind of power the US exerts over itself and the rest of the world. Imagine if George Bush were PM of Canada and Canada was a world power... with the kind of authority the PM has here, we'd be fighting 10 wars right now and the world would look something like a crater. As crazy as GWB may seem at times, be thankful he's president of the United States and not President of the USSR or some other theoretical, highly centralized, superpower.

Good point.

	16-07-2004 00:45									#104
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I think you couldn't ask for a better country/political system to be the world power. The United States government is filled with checks and balances that really moderate what kind of power the US exerts over itself and the rest of the world. Imagine if George Bush were PM of Canada and Canada was a world power... with the kind of authority the PM has here, we'd be fighting 10 wars right now and the world would look something like a crater. As crazy as GWB may seem at times, be thankful he's president of the United States and not President of the USSR or some other theoretical, highly centralized, superpower.

Well, if you call the history of installing dictatorships in different parts of the world moderation . . . . .

	16-07-2004 01:15									#105
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You have to be joking with us in saying you can't think of any dictatorships that the United States had installed? Does Saddam Huessein ring any bells? In fact, that might be one reason why he is so adamantly unrepetent -- he was a partner with United States at an earlier time.

To me there's a difference between "installed" and supported.

I don't remember the US conquering Iraq and then declaring Saddam our Regent to run it.

The US has supported a lot of dictatorships because they made deals or were working towards objectives the US was interested in. But, I don't feel the US has installed dictatorships so much and simply funded as backed local leaders that were pro-US objectives at the time.

	16-07-2004 01:17									#106
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I find semantical acrobatics played out by some people in oder to fluff up some things about United States amusing sometimes.

	16-07-2004 01:19									#107
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Why is it semantical acrobatics? It's no such thing. Supporting dictators is miles away from installing them. Supporting dictators is something you HAVE to do if you don't want to piss off most of the world. Installing dictators... you have a choice there.

	16-07-2004 01:22									#108
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But still, you can install dictators without the obvious military invasion -- CIA operations, is another option.

	16-07-2004 01:27									#109
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Yes, but once again, we had absolutely NO role in installing Saddam to power.

	16-07-2004 01:29									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, but once again, we had absolutely NO role in installing Saddam to power.

Exactly, Imran is right as usual. We did not install Saddam but we did support him as he was fighting against those we felt were a much greater threat to America and Americans.

Using MrFun's logic, Ambassador Joe Kennedy installed Hitler as dictator of Germany because he supported him.

Way to go, Joe!

	16-07-2004 01:35									#111
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What are we suppose to compare the US to?

My opinion of the US culture and govt is very poor, probably because the US has a strong negative effect on me personally. They have the power to screw with me. So I can't really rate it.

There is something about Americans that make them follow the leader. They think they are so independent, but most of them just follow along with what their parents, schools, media, and polititians tell them.

	16-07-2004 01:46									#112
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quote: Yes, but once again, we had absolutely NO role in installing Saddam to power.

Yes we did. We supported the Ba'athist Party against the Qaseem gov't, and then Tikriti Clan (Saddam's clan) within the Ba'athist Party. Our support was instrumental in his siezing power.

	16-07-2004 01:49									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What are we suppose to compare the US to? My opinion of the US culture and govt is very poor, probably because the US has a strong negative effect on me personally. They have the power to screw with me. So I can't really rate it. There is something about Americans that make them follow the leader. They think they are so independent, but most of them just follow along with what their parents, schools, media, and polititians tell them.

everybody does that, not just americans.

	16-07-2004 01:55									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Well, if you call the history of installing dictatorships in different parts of the world moderation . . . . .

It is. Again, compare it to what happened under other superpowers.

	16-07-2004 01:59									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I voted 2 because I deem your social model to be utterly nightmarish,

Well, duh, you're a commie. Most of the rest of the world is capitalist, too, though...

quote: because of your consistent bullying over the world ever since you became a superpower,

That's basically the definition of the word, and nothing special regardless.

quote: because of an apparent American unability to question its self-righteousness.

Which is of course why people like Michael Moore don't exist... what really seperates us from all past powers is that we do have a large segment of our population at least willing, or more than willing to question our self-righteousness (oftentimes, whether such questions are justified or not).

	16-07-2004 02:01									#116
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quote: Yes we did. We supported the Ba'athist Party against the Qaseem gov't, and then Tikriti Clan (Saddam's clan) within the Ba'athist Party. Our support was instrumental in his siezing power.

Even if the US supported the socialist Ba'athist Party (unlikely.. supporting socialist rebels during the Cold War?), we installed General al-Bakr, not Saddam. The fact that Saddam eventually took power in the government doesn't mean the US installed him.

	16-07-2004 02:05									#117
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The Ba'athists weren't socialist, any more than the Nazis were socialist. They were Arab nationalists, thought to be a counterpart to the Soviet-friendly Qaseem.

And again, we supported Saddam's clan within the Ba'athist party.

So clearly we had at least SOME role in installing Saddam.

	16-07-2004 02:36									#118
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As much as we had SOME role installing Helmut Kohl to power in Germany.

	16-07-2004 02:42									#119
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We had far more of a role in the ascension of Saddam than Kohl. Clearly, it's not true that, "we had absolutely NO role in installing Saddam to power."

	16-07-2004 02:47									#120
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Only if you want to streach things . Installing a party does not equal installing a party underling to power. It'd be like asserting that Communists had a role in installing Stalin to power when they backed the 1917 Revolution.