22-07-2004 18:13									#181
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"We don't really"

We do. Look at the figures.

	22-07-2004 21:43									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I'd perhaps agree, if we were at full employment.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/econ...1263607,00.html

quote: Gordon Brown will soon be able to announce that Britain has achieved full employment in what will be a highly symbolic moment for Britain's economy, according to the latest Ernst & Young Item Club forecast to be published tomorrow. The respected Item report will say the world economy is enjoying its best performance for 16 years and that Britain's economy is 'in great shape'.

	22-07-2004 22:11									#183
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Full employment? As in a Labour-fiddling-the-figures full employment? Clearly we still have people without a job, hence we have unemployment. It's low, sure, but we don't have *full* employment.

However full employment isn't a good thing. It's inflexible, inbalances negotiation, causing higher wage increases than economic growth (which is unsustainable) and a so reduces long term growth. Very low unemployment is good, but 0 unemployment isn't, as it makes it hard to impossible to find workers, so fewer companies can start and grow.

	22-07-2004 22:21									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Full employment? As in a Labour-fiddling-the-figures full employment? Clearly we still have people without a job, hence we have unemployment. It's low, sure, but we don't have *full* employment.

Has the Labour party rebranded itself as "Ernst & Young"?

	22-07-2004 22:22									#185
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quote: We do. Look at the figures.

Please show us.

	22-07-2004 22:26									#186
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Our unemployment is at around 2% (full employment) by benefits stats or about 4.5% (not full employment) by international measures.

	22-07-2004 22:29									#187
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Full employment does not equal 0% unemployment Drogue.

In the US economy full employment is generally taken to occur at around 4% unemploymetn. For other economies it might be slightly different.

	22-07-2004 22:34									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Our unemployment is at around 2% (full employment) by benefits stats or about 4.5% (not full employment) by international measures.

So? What does that have to do with suggesting that we suffer more from asylum seekers?

	22-07-2004 22:36									#189
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Because we take more of them than most European countries.

	22-07-2004 22:44									#190
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Yes, we get more than France and Germany; by a measly ten thousand.

	22-07-2004 22:46									#191
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That few?

	22-07-2004 22:52									#192
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No doubt you thought it was half a million a year or something.

	22-07-2004 22:57									#193
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quote: Because we take more of them than most European countries.

Not good enough. Show us negative consequences that are directly attributed to asylum seekers and immigration. I don't mean indirect consequences, or consequences caused by discrimination and rejection by folks like you.

	22-07-2004 23:17									#194
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But both indirect causes and causes caused by discrimination as well are still causes, and still an argument against immigration. Whether or not it's directly responsible, which is a point in itself, if something happens with immigration, that wouldn't happen without, and it's undesirable, that's an argument against immigration.

Being the economist I am, I'd just weigth up the economic costs and benefits, look at things like crime and housing, see how these are affected, and decide whats best. That is, if I had the time or inclination to do the work for it. But that's what I'd like the government to do

	22-07-2004 23:22									#195
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quote: But both indirect causes and causes caused by discrimination as well are still causes, and still an argument against immigration. Whether or not it's directly responsible, which is a point in itself, if something happens with immigration, that wouldn't happen without, and it's undesirable, that's an argument against immigration.

True, but if you're looking for a reason to directly impose for consistency you need a direct consequence from them.

Furthermore, the best economic argument isn't to stop immigration or quotas from different peoples, rather limit it generally to sensible levels, which is what I support.

	22-07-2004 23:28									#196
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I agree, but what a sensible level is is a matter of opinion. WRT asylum, all I have a problem with is illegals, who should be deported, IMHO. WRT immigration, I'd like a points system that's simple and works well.

	23-07-2004 00:41									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I don't think the BNP is the entirely racist organisation that it is somtimes portrayed as

Given the pasts of its hierarchy and a deal of its membership, there is no need to 'portray' the party as racist- its racism and its racist antecedents speak for themselves.


Perhaps you haven't heard of the 1970s, and the National Front and the British Movement- same racism, different drag. I grew up in a Midlands town that was a centre for their repulsive recruiting campaigns and racist attacks- I fail to see how you can get much more racist than stabbing to death an Asian doctor.

Every so often the same bile and prejudice needs an update, so they glam it up with anti-Europeanism, or trying to appeal to a green vote, but the underlying hatred for foreigners remains the same- and they usually have to be darker skinned foreigners too, unless the BNP has taken to campaigning against overstaying white Aussie backpackers working illegally.

With parties like the BNP and the National Front and the British Movement I'm inclined to forget my usual Voltairean sentiments about disagreeing with what people say but supporting their right to say it- when you've seen the politics of race hatred in all its scummy sewer born efflorescence I say the only good racist is a dead one.

	23-07-2004 01:36									#198
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A murder is a murder. Whether racism is implicated is irrelevant. Murder is murder and abhorrent.

	23-07-2004 01:43									#199
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Yeah, and a racist murder is still a racist murder. We're not talking about whether hate crimes should have greater punishments. Can I have a point please Bob?

	23-07-2004 01:55									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue A murder is a murder. Whether racism is implicated is irrelevant.

Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the British judicial system.

	23-07-2004 01:58									#201
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"Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the British judicial system."

So? How some justifications for murder can be deemed better than others is crass.

	23-07-2004 02:01									#202
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A judge can take any factors he chooses into consideration when sentencing.

	23-07-2004 02:08									#203
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quote: So? How some justifications for murder can be deemed better than others is crass.

Indeed, a punishment is not solely related to the crime since in modern judicial systems it takes account of the nature of that crime, not least the state of the person committing it. Someone who avenges the murder of his brother for example, is likely to receive less then someone who kills someone of another race in cold blood on the basis of that race, the latter would be deemed to need more correction, though I dislike retribution intensely.

	23-07-2004 02:09									#204
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Must make it quite unpredictable that!

	23-07-2004 02:15									#205
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Not really.. same circumstances, same result, it's just there are more factors (that remain deterministic) than your simplistic logic allows for.

	23-07-2004 02:23									#206
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So Whaleboy, a judge can't take any factors he chooses into consideration when sentencing.

If it's deterministic based on factors... Or does the judge have some bearing?

	23-07-2004 02:32									#207
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Of course, but the judge isn't any idiot from the street. Now, while I agree that you can't predetermine the sentence with mathematical precision, you can know roughly when you know what the judge does. A good judge will affect his sentencing based on the situation, not upon his own whim. Someone that appears to need more correction will get it, though the crime itself was identical to another, whose convict got a lesser punishment.

	23-07-2004 04:08									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the British judicial system." So? How some justifications for murder can be deemed better than others is crass.

A woman murders the man who raped her and disfigured her face.


A man murders (by mercy killing) his elderly wife who has Alzheimer's and cancer and has previously told him she did not want to live in such a state.

A man kills a paedophile who raped and murdered his son.


A doctor 'murders' a terminally ill patient by administering a helpful dose of a morphine derivative.

None of these are fictional, and I suspect a great many people would have much sympathy with many of the people in these situations.


What a wonderful, ah, BLACK and WHITE world you live in- except when it comes to you of course- then we're meant to excuse your crassly offensive remarks about immigrants 'breeding' criminals (where, I wonder, in special farms, perhaps?) as your 'political opinion' rather than the ignorant racist trash it is.

	23-07-2004 14:41									#209
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"A doctor 'murders' a terminally ill patient by administering a helpful dose of a morphine derivative."

I suggest a racist attack is on a par with this. The other three have some kind of vengeance motive. Murders with no prior reason should be held on the same level.

So if someone killed a white man because he looked at him in the wrong way..then that is as bad as someone who kills someone because he is Asian, black, white or whatever (as racist attacks are more common on whites in UK).

	23-07-2004 19:43									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "A doctor 'murders' a terminally ill patient by administering a helpful dose of a morphine derivative." I suggest a racist attack is on a par with this. The other three have some kind of vengeance motive. Murders with no prior reason should be held on the same level. So if someone killed a white man because he looked at him in the wrong way..then that is as bad as someone who kills someone because he is Asian, black, white or whatever (as racist attacks are more common on whites in UK).

Please provide figures showing the majority of racist attacks in the United Kingdom having been carried out by non-whites on whites, and by figures, I don't mean whatever you cobbled together from a friend of a friend and the general consensus amongst the sheep in Llandrindod Wells.

You suggest a racially motivated murder is on a par with a mercy killing- of course, how could I failed to have noticed! All those black folks lynched in the Deep South were just throwing themsleves into nooses, they were so demoralised with being unable to get into Harvard and the crackers were just doing them a favour.

And I suppose the Asian doctor stabbed to death by neo-nazi skinheads near my friend's house threw himself on the knife repeatedly because he was really just tired of not only being a community doctor, but also doing voluntary work with the homeless in his spare time. Those slope browed morons were doing him a favour, he just didn't realize it.


Oh, I love the 'someone kills a white man because he looked at him the wrong way' line. It's quintessentially you, and I'm sure you'll gather I mean to pay you no compliment by saying that.