21-07-2004 10:56									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Same difference when it comes to trying to provide the political opposition that no other main party will.

Surely there is a fundamental difference between living and dead people.

How would Nelson Mendela continued to be the political opposition in South Africa if he had been dead?

	21-07-2004 13:27									#152
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UR, the living are no opposition when they are silenced.

PH

quote: Stew - look at it this way - the evidence is compelling against him: a taped confession to committing the act corroborated with police evidence and events. I can't see there is much he can pull off against that. What do you think a jury will think? Bear in mind they are unlikely to be remotely sympathetic to the BNP 'cause'.

i) Make a prediction of likely punishment then.

ii) The BNP are a legitimate political party. Their members should not have their trials biased for being a member of them.

You know, I would have thought you left-liberals would have better knowledge of times when those with unpopular beliefs have been persecuted and attacked. You don't seem to like the church very much Rich, yet their past behaviour is paralleled with what you are supporting here.

Makes me wonder what your "principles" are exactly.

	21-07-2004 15:24									#153
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His membership of the BNP isn't an issue in his trial.

The fact that the BNP is full of members like this but tries to deny it with their public face is a valid issue that people need to be told about.

	21-07-2004 21:25									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Even so, I'm wondering with your superior background, why you can't seem to state what will happen with this chap. I mean, you make it seem so open-and-shut, shall we say.

Because of R v Ponting.

Establishing guilt is not the same as establishing "what will happen to him". Unless we have a psychic present, that's a question that remains to be answered.

	22-07-2004 15:02									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH His membership of the BNP isn't an issue in his trial. The fact that the BNP is full of members like this but tries to deny it with their public face is a valid issue that people need to be told about.

If you are a racist, you will vote BNP. And we probably have enough racists in this country to make a lot of BNP members racists.

But they wield little influence on the party's official political stance, regardless what you conspiracy theorists like to claim.

	22-07-2004 15:07									#156
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That's what they want the electorate to believe so they can try and get some votes from people who would otherwise never vote for them.

	22-07-2004 15:14									#157
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Exactly- that's the theory.

	22-07-2004 15:15									#158
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So you agree that their official stance is a total sham?

	22-07-2004 15:19									#159
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No, I said what you think is the left-liberal conspiracy theory of the BNP. Of course until they're elected somewhere we'll not know.

	22-07-2004 15:21									#160
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So Michael Howard is a left-liberal?

	22-07-2004 15:23									#161
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No, he's just an idiot who'll never get the Tories elected. It's partly because we don't have a right-wing party tough on immigration and crime that the BNP has risen so strongly in some areas.

	22-07-2004 15:24									#162
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Do you actually remember Michael Howard's stint as home secretary?

	22-07-2004 15:36									#163
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How is that relevant?

	22-07-2004 15:39									#164
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You seemed to be suggesting the major parties (ie including his Tories) weren't 'tough on crime'.

	22-07-2004 15:42									#165
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I also think he lack principles - which means his past actions are no indicator of his opportunistic future ones.

	22-07-2004 15:45									#166
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He's a politician.

	22-07-2004 16:10									#167
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But PA has a point. Howard is trying to appeal to the mainstream, and so hardline voters might turn to the BNP. It's like Nader and the Dems. I don't think the BNP is the entirely racist organisation that it is somtimes portrayed as, however, as PA says:

quote: we probably have enough racists in this country to make a lot of BNP members racists.

Most parties follow their membership, and as such, since a good proportion of the BNP is racist, it's policies will be somewhat racist. The fact so many of them are like that is why I'd never vote for them, even if I agreed with their stance on immigration.

People who don't want to support racism, but do want to end immigration, have nowhere to go, it seems. People who would agree with David Davis, The Sun or The Mail, who usually vote Tory, but who may defect if the Tories try to capture the centre.

The Tories are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they appeal to these people, while they are numerous, they lose the centre ground, which means Labour win the election. If they go for the centre, they'll lose some support to the BNP and UKIP, and won't get enough of the centre to beat Labour. Unless the Liberals take a lot of out Labour's left, while Howard manages to keep possible BNP voters and capture the centre at once (a big push for public service choice while also pushing for anti-immigration might do it), the Tories will lose the next general election. It's a tall order, but with Iraq going badly, public services being fought over choice, and the Euro-sceptic feeling very much apparent, it's doable.

	22-07-2004 16:12									#168
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We can't end immigration, we need immigrants. They are vital to the economy.

Illegal immigration and false asylum claims are the problem not legal immigration.

	22-07-2004 16:16									#169
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"We can't end immigration, we need immigrants. They are vital to the economy."

I'd perhaps agree, if we were at full employment.

I think a far better solution would be an overhaul of the post-18 education system so training for jobs is of a higher quality, more credible, and more accessible.

Once that happens, immigration is unnecessary.

Of course, if the incumbent government sees improving vocational education (and I don't just mean tasks like plumbing and carpentry here) as more difficult than just opening the borders, then we'll be stuck with the current problem.

	22-07-2004 16:22									#170
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Well we don't have the skills so we need them. You can't just turn off the tap. Even in the future there'll be new skills that we don't have here. Even if the immigrants are the people teaching those skills to certain Brits.

It's a lot cheaper to employ people trained abroad than train them here. Employed skilled immigrants aren't a problem anyway are they.

	22-07-2004 16:28									#171
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quote: Well we don't have the skills so we need them. You can't just turn off the tap. Even in the future there'll be new skills that we don't have here. Even if the immigrants are the people teaching those skills to certain Brits.

If you are expecting an endless flood of available of immigrants to be able to pick and choose from I think you are mistaken.

We should educate our own by learning if necessary from other countries. We are an advanced and developed economy so we should not be incapable of something that another country can do.

quote: It's a lot cheaper to employ people trained abroad than train them here. Employed skilled immigrants aren't a problem anyway are they.

Then you get into the problem of brain drain from the "donor" country. How long will a donor country be happy educating spending for its people for them to piss off and earn elsewhere? It's not a long-term solution for donor or host country, so the sooner we get into place a credible system of training the unemployed to fill the ever-changing gaps in the labour market the better it will be not just for us but also for other countries that contribute immigrants.

	22-07-2004 16:32									#172
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I am in agreement that we should educate people who already live here first where possible and that vocational education is important.

Immigration isn't bad in and of itself though.

	22-07-2004 16:32									#173
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Well we don't have the skills so we need them. You can't just turn off the tap. Even in the future there'll be new skills that we don't have here. Even if the immigrants are the people teaching those skills to certain Brits. It's a lot cheaper to employ people trained abroad than train them here. Employed skilled immigrants aren't a problem anyway are they.

Why not use the Aussie system of points? Points for being trained, for age, for education, etc. Anyone over a certain level can be an economic immigrant, and anyone who isn't either has to manage to claim asylum or leave.

Economic immigration is good at times and bad at times, and this is the best way to only let it be a good thing.

	22-07-2004 16:35									#174
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Er... that's pretty much the principle of the system we already have. What are you suggesting we change?

	22-07-2004 16:40									#175
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Is it? I thought ours was horrendously complicated, and meant that people who shouldbe deported didn't. Also, the uproar about letting in multi-millionairres last time was a bit weird - just think of the tax they'll pay

	22-07-2004 16:43									#176
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That's the asylum procedure not immigration.

	22-07-2004 16:49									#177
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Ahhh... if it works like that, in a simple way, why do we have the problems with it? I thought both asylum and immigration were choked up?

	22-07-2004 17:08									#178
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Too many people applying for the system to cope with. Most legal immigrants have to apply for visas etc before they come here. It's the asylum seekers that just turn up we're struggling with.

	22-07-2004 17:10									#179
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"Too many people applying for the system to cope with"

We're an island. We ought to have far fewer problems than any other European country as a result - we seem to have the most.

	22-07-2004 17:14									#180
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We don't really. We just ***** about it more.