20-07-2004 04:59									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Indeed they were, but not by the British judicial system." No, by people who disagreed with them politically. Same difference.

With rapier logic and wit like that, clearly your degree course is really paying big dividends.


Perhaps you should have taken applied knitting with advanced lager drinking and theoretical plonkery.



Still, with all those white faced sheep in Wales you probably weren't too out of place.

	20-07-2004 13:50									#122
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Think I'll report that to Ming

	20-07-2004 16:43									#123
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Five Arrested after film.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/...ire/3909409.stm

	20-07-2004 18:59									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Think I'll report that to Ming

Ooohh, I'm so , I'm filling my pants.

	20-07-2004 19:31									#125
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Five Arrested after film. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/...ire/3909409.stm

I wonder if they'll tell us when they are found not guilty, when they tell us that whenever there is the odd Muslim arrested and released.

	20-07-2004 20:02									#126
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If they are found not guilty I'm sure they'll report it and as for muslim arrests: Your 686 search results for "muslim arrest"

	20-07-2004 21:29									#127
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From the BBC.

quote: Police say a 23-year-old from Bradford is being questioned about racially aggravated public order offences. A Bradford man, 51, is being questioned about racially aggravated harrassment and a 45-year-old Bradford man was held on suspicion of possessing a firearm. Two Keighley men, aged 35 and 40, were bailed after being held on suspicion of conspiracy to commit criminal damage.

So that'll be the activist who admitted kicking an Asian unconscious, the nutter with the Lee-Enfield, the councillor who mails dog-eggs and the pair planning to burn the TUC van.

No word yet on Griffin or Collett.

	20-07-2004 21:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I'm sure opposition to Hitler and Stalin were declared criminals too.

No, just dead.

Next guess.

	20-07-2004 22:08									#129
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"No, just dead."

Same difference when it comes to trying to provide the political opposition that no other main party will.

P.S. Let's stop this talk about who the police take in for questioning. That is nothing. It is not evidence of any kind of guilt.

	20-07-2004 22:14									#130
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Exactly. It's not like they were caught on camera giving full confessions.

	20-07-2004 22:15									#131
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You'll find the law isn't so easy to interpret in these cases.

	20-07-2004 23:47									#132
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You'll find that it's generally best avoid discussing the fine points of the law with people who have the letters "LL.B" after their name.

	21-07-2004 00:03									#133
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Really? Tell me what's going to happen then.

	21-07-2004 00:16									#134
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You're going to end up looking stupid. I realise that you started from that position anyway, but I do hate to crush any dim glow of lingering hope.

	21-07-2004 00:23									#136
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Well I note you're avoiding making any predictions relating to the actual issue of those being questioned, despite apparently having letters after your name that ought to provide you with the means to.

	21-07-2004 00:26									#137
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He doesn't need to. Critically speaking, the burden of proof is on you, and Laz is perfectly free to refute them. Nonetheless, I find his logic to be generally flawless, even his justifications of censorship with which I disagree (different logic) and yours less so. *toilet break*

	21-07-2004 00:27									#138
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"Critically speaking, the burden of proof is on you"

Individuals are innocent till proven guilty, so that's idiotic.

	21-07-2004 00:29									#139
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They are innocent before proven guilty because the proposition of guilt is not being made by them, and so it is the prosecution that have the burden of proof. Surely that's more than obvious?

	21-07-2004 00:34									#140
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Whaleboy; how the conversation went.

PA: The law isn't easy to predict in cases like this

LatG: Apparent refutation, but of course he didn't put his balls on the line and say it outright (so insinuation: law is easy to predict)

PA: Questions what the outcome will be, given the refutation of my above comment

LatG: Sidesteps question and insult.

So where you get that a "burden of proof" rests with me I don't know. You could try explaining in Plain English.

	21-07-2004 00:35									#141
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Let's take the case of the young activist. He claimed to have kicked the Asian unconscious "because he was there and asking for it". He later repeated his claim, going on to elaborate on how he went on kicking the man as he was on the ground. This was independently backed up by Police evidence.

What basis do I have to call that man a liar?

	21-07-2004 00:40									#142
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quote: Let's take the case of the young activist. He claimed to have kicked the Asian unconscious "because he was there and asking for it". He later repeated his claim, going on to elaborate on how he went on kicking the man as he was on the ground. This was independently backed up by Police evidence. What basis do I have to call that man a liar?

The basis that he was trying to impress someone he thought was racist and so whom would be impressed by his tale, perhaps.

Will he repeat the story to the police in a statement that we know i) isn't co-erced, and ii) isn't under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs?

And if the police already had independent evidence, where was the arrest/questioning already?

	21-07-2004 00:40									#143
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quote: PA: The law isn't easy to predict in cases like this

You have to prove.

quote: LatG: Apparent refutation, but of course he didn't put his balls on the line and say it outright (so insinuation: law is easy to predict)

Insinuation is irrelevant. The apparent refutation appeared fine to me. Any other thoughts?

quote: LatG: Sidesteps question and insult.

Yours was hardly critical material

quote: So where you get that a "burden of proof" rests with me I don't know. You could try explaining in Plain English.

If you have a problem with words in the 3-5 syllable range, I could buy you a set of flash-cards if you wish? Nonetheless, if you need some help:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=justification
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=censorship
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proposition
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=logic
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idiot

	21-07-2004 00:43									#144
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"You have to prove."

How on earth can I prove that!

The only proving that can be done is by proving that the law can be predicted - and hence make an accurate claim regarding the likely punishment that will be handed out. I can't predict it, that's for sure. If someone can, feel free.

	21-07-2004 00:46									#145
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If you want me to be pedantic, see Maslow's hierarchy of needs, something you should have been familiar with from your degree. Also see the difference in and between intent and consequence.

Your proposition was that the law is essentially unpredictable, to whatever degree you also have to show. But generally, you need to provide premises, reasoning and a conclusion as to why the law is unpredictable, the proposition of such does not critically obligate your opponents to find contrary examples, merely reasoning to refute you.

	21-07-2004 00:50									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue The basis that he was trying to impress someone he thought was racist and so whom would be impressed by his tale, perhaps. Will he repeat the story to the police in a statement that we know i) isn't co-erced, and ii) isn't under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs? And if the police already had independent evidence, where was the arrest/questioning already?

Earlier in this thread you admitted having shaky memory about the documentary. Allow me to refresh your memory- he had already been questioned by the police about it. Due to the photographs, etc.

Incidentally, when you've a spare afternoon, try looking up the legal basis for the presumption of innocence in English criminal law. The results may surprise you.

	21-07-2004 00:54									#147
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quote: Earlier in this thread you admitted having shaky memory about the documentary. Allow me to refresh your memory- he had already been questioned by the police about it. Due to the photographs, etc.

Even so, I'm wondering with your superior background, why you can't seem to state what will happen with this chap. I mean, you make it seem so open-and-shut, shall we say.

	21-07-2004 00:57									#148
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quote: There is nothing illiberal about wanting to stop the immigration of illiberal masses of people.

If you mean liberal in the classical sense of cultural relativism, we cannot ascribe liberalism to any external cultures, merely exercise our own liberalism and use it as an egocentric cultural description. Outside they merely "are", without such notions attached.

	21-07-2004 01:03									#149
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Liberal ideas are fundamentally about being tolerant towards those with differing beliefs. As such, excluding those with differing beliefs entirely from your country is antithetical to liberalism.

	21-07-2004 02:45									#150
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Stew - look at it this way - the evidence is compelling against him: a taped confession to committing the act corroborated with police evidence and events. I can't see there is much he can pull off against that. What do you think a jury will think? Bear in mind they are unlikely to be remotely sympathetic to the BNP 'cause'.