19-07-2004 23:39									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I like boozing, playing video games, browsing Poly etc. more than I'd like not doing those things with my free time.

I have a low threshold for boredom.

	19-07-2004 23:40									#62
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But if I declare cooking to be work for others, then I have to cook the day before.

Thats right. You can have cold food for your main shabbos meal. Or you can cook a food that can be left warming in the oven overnight - ergo, the joy of cholent (note - food preparation that doesnt involve heating is not necessarily considered "work")

Cholent
http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/c...ategory=CHOLENT


A recipe:
"Cholent for Saturday
Cholent is the answer to serving a hot midday meal on Saturday when restrictions against cooking on the Sabbath are observed. In this version, the cholent can be half-cooked and left to bake overnight in the oven or can be slowly cooked overnight in a crock pot.
1 cup dry baby lima beans
1 cup dry white beans (navy)
2 Tbsp. olive oil
Water
2 onions, finely chopped
2 1/2 lb. beef chuck roast or brisket, with fat, cut into 4 to 6 large chunks
2/3 cup pearl barley
1/2 cup dry lentils
3 garlic cloves, minced
1 1/2 tsp. paprika
1 tsp. salt
1/2 tsp. black pepper
1/2 tsp. ground ginger
1 bay leaf
6 small red or white potatoes, well scrubbed
About 7 cups boiling water


The day before serving the cholent, put lima and white beans in pot with water to cover by two inches. Cover and bring to a boil. Boil for 2 minutes; remove from heat and soak 1-3 hours. Drain beans well. In a 8-quart pot or Dutch oven, heat the oil, then cook the onions until light brown. Add the meat to pot and brown. Add the soaked beans, barley, lentils, garlic, paprika, salt, pepper, ginger and bay leaf. Put the potatoes on top. Add water until almost covered, less than 1 inch. Over medium heat, bring the cholent to a boil; then cover and place in a preheated 350° oven. Bake for 1 hour, then lower temperature to 250° and bake overnight (12 to 15 hours). Do not stir while cooking. Serve the cholent in soup bowls.

In a crock pot: Brown the onions and meat in a skillet, then transfer to a crock pot with the remaining ingredients. Cook on HIGH for 1 hour, then turn heat to LOW and cook overnight."

	19-07-2004 23:41									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But if I declare cooking to be work for others, then I have to cook the day before.

I know Jews that do this. They also don't use electricity or phones...

	19-07-2004 23:41									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: the notion that an all-powerful being wants us to rest one out of seven days...

What's more incomprehensible? That he would want us to do this, or the statement, "on the seventh day he rested?"

	19-07-2004 23:44									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Thats right. You can have cold food for your main shabbos meal. Or you can cook a food that can be left warming in the oven overnight - ergo, the joy of cholent (note - food preparation that doesn't involve heating is not necessarily considered "work")

Usually my approach on Sundays, but I do go out with friends on occasion to eat, and for fellowship.

Still, it seems too legalistic for me, getting away from the day of rest.

	19-07-2004 23:46									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I like boozing, playing video games, browsing Poly etc. more than I'd like not doing those things with my free time. I have a low threshold for boredom.

another great argument FOR shabbot - it gets you used to a slower pace. Helps break the video game and media addictions.

	19-07-2004 23:47									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: They also don't use electricity or phones...

I use phones very reluctantly, so that's not a problem.

	19-07-2004 23:49									#68
	Increase the size of your Attachments

For example, would it be sinful for us to serve Jews on their sabbath, and Jews to serve us on ours?

	19-07-2004 23:50									#69
	Put an end to popups!

A devout Jewish maiden named Donna
Is extremely afraid she's a goner.
She was screwing one day
In each possible way,
Quite forgetting it was Rosh Hoshana.

	19-07-2004 23:51									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Usually my approach on Sundays, but I do go out with friends on occasion to eat, and for fellowship. Still, it seems too legalistic for me, getting away from the day of rest.

too much legalist minutae?? You need to read Heschel then. The jews spent hundreds of years adding curlicues of laws, customs and folkways, all interacting with each other, to make up what Shabbos is for us. Effort that certain OTHER people put into the minutae and curlicues of stone cathedrals, with interaction of architecture, sculpture, glass making, etc. Unfortunately you cant carry a cathedral with you on your back. Thus the Shabbos becomes " a cathedral in time". Just as every tiny gargoyle, every curlicue in stone or glass is an act of LOVE, so every detail of law, every little folkway that ties that law together, is an expression of LOVE for the giver of the Shabbat.

	19-07-2004 23:54									#71
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I use phones very reluctantly, so that's not a problem.

A:who would call us on shabbos?
B: no one, unless its an emergency, oh no, somethings happened to my parents, go pick up the phone
A. No, theyre stricter than we are, it must be your friend becky, she has no manners ....
B: wait, the caller ID says its a telemarketer
A.h

	19-07-2004 23:55									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark another great argument FOR shabbot - it gets you used to a slower pace. Helps break the video game and media addictions.

Addictions? I doubt it. I'm much closer to being addicted to alcohol than I am to being addicted to media.

I took a 5 month voluntaryish absence from this place, played perhaps 12 hours of video games total and as always watched zero TV from January to May when I was actually busy with school.

I just don't feel like sitting around for 16 hours a week navel-gazing when I could either be thinking about problems that have real solutions or enjoying myself with trivialities.

	19-07-2004 23:56									#73
	Support Apolyton

=

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi For example, would it be sinful for us to serve Jews on their sabbath, and Jews to serve us on ours?

sinful? Such reciprocity would be the highest honor we could do to G-d.

	19-07-2004 23:56									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm really pissed off that liquor stores aren't open on Sundays here.

	19-07-2004 23:57									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I don't have an issue with electricity

or doing needed chores

JM

	19-07-2004 23:59									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To rip off a line from Maddox:

"For every Sabbath that you keep, I'm going to break three".

	19-07-2004 23:59									#77
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I just don't feel like sitting around for 16 hours a week navel-gazing when I could either be thinking about problems that have real solutions or enjoying myself with trivialities.

whats to keep you from thinking about problems with real solutions. Nothing in the Jewish sabbath law keeps you from reading a secular book on shabbos, and I often do. Its a nice time to read. And to think quietly, if you prefer. Or to talk with friends, if they share your interests/concerns.

"Mr. Shapiro, why are you in shul every week, i know full well youre an atheist"
"Mr. Levi comes to talk with God, and I come to talk with Mr. Levi"

	20-07-2004 00:00									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Just as every tiny gargoyle, every curlicue in stone or glass is an act of LOVE, so every detail of law, every little folkway that ties that law together, is an expression of LOVE for the giver of the Shabbat.

Yes, but do you communicate using the fancy text of medieval periods, finely crafted, or through more simpler text?

The intricacies can obscure the truth.

	20-07-2004 00:01									#79
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Such reciprocity would be the highest honor we could do to G-d.

Then Christians should only go to Jewish restaurants on Sundays.

	20-07-2004 00:01									#80
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I don't have an issue with electricity or doing needed chores JM

Conservative Jewish rabbis do allow electricity. Theres some controversy about the basis for the Orthodox ban on electricity on Shabbos, but that would take you farther into this than i think any of you want to go.

	20-07-2004 00:02									#81
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark whats to keep you from thinking about problems with real solutions. Nothing in the Jewish sabbath law keeps you from reading a secular book on shabbos, and I often do. Its a nice time to read. And to think quietly, if you prefer. Or to talk with friends, if they share your interests/concerns.

That's ridiculous. My job is to think and read. So if I'm thinking and reading about physics then I'm working.

	20-07-2004 00:03									#82
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then Christians should only go to Jewish restaurants on Sundays.

They need to get some Montreal Jews down here so I can get a decent smoked meat sandwich.

	20-07-2004 00:07									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, but do you communicate using the fancy text of medieval periods, finely crafted, or through more simpler text? The intricacies can obscure the truth.

thats why we need "kavannah" intention, spirituality. Just performing ritual deeds without it isnt enough. Rabbinic homilies, chassidic tales, family traditions and associations, personal meditation etc can all help us to connect the ritual deeds to the human heart. Shabbos candles may be a legal endrun around the ban on lighting a fire (its ok IF the fire/candle/oil lamp is lit before shabbos begins) to me its the face of my mother, G-d rest her soul, lighting the candles, and silently praying over them. Cholent is a technical means around the ban on cooking - but its the warmth of my inlaws kitchens, the taste that accompanies the shabbos table, and (often) leads the way to a shabbos nap-


real living observant Jews arent comic book Pharisees.

	20-07-2004 00:12									#84
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's ridiculous. My job is to think and read. So if I'm thinking and reading about physics then I'm working.

technically no. We're lost in translation here. Theres a speficic list of banned activities found in the bible, and elaborated on by the rabbis. Some connect them with the actions taken in building the ancient tabernacle - others speak of these actions (burning, tearing, etc) as actions that interfere with nature - shabbos is a time when we leave nature alone - what you do during the week technically doesnt matter.

But certainly if shabbos is not just to be a religious observance, to be felt as a day of rest, it must be different than what we do during the week. Which is difficult if what we do during the week is something we DEEPLY ENJOY. (I would suggest that there are practical problems you could contemplate OTHER than those that concern your work - but I dont that answers the problem I have just stated)

I dont have an answer handy, but I do recall seeing an article that addressed speficically this problem.

	20-07-2004 00:15									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then Christians should only go to Jewish restaurants on Sundays.

and muslims ones. Dare I say that at this time the need for Christian - Muslim and Jewish - Muslims reconciliation is even more urgent than the need for Christian - Jewish reconciliation?

	20-07-2004 00:16									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I know that it's not, technically. I'm just saying that telling me that I am able to read a book on physics whereas an construction worker isn't able to go outside and build a fence around his house is ridiculous.

There are already enough silly taboos; why would I pick up one which is no longer even socially encouraged?

	20-07-2004 00:25									#87
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm really pissed off that liquor stores aren't open on Sundays here.

yah

I dont' beleive in legislating religion

Jon Miller

	20-07-2004 00:27									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I don't believe in legislating alcohol.

	20-07-2004 00:27									#89
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I know that it's not, technically. I'm just saying that telling me that I am able to read a book on physics whereas an construction worker isn't able to go outside and build a fence around his house is ridiculous. There are already enough silly taboos; why would I pick up one which is no longer even socially encouraged?

well if youre not Jewish by birth or choice, or contemplating conversion, I really shouldnt even suggest that you do so. The Shabbat is a gift to the Jews alone (apologies to the Seventh Day Adventists and others here - youre certainly entitled to YOUR religions views, im just explaining to KH a point of JEWISH law)

OTOH it would be dishonest of me to deny that some people find the Shabbos a truely restorative time. OTOH not all do. YMMV. Alot depends on whether you celebrate it as part of a Jewishly observant community, and what sort of community. And what you bring to it, in terms of associations, beliefs, etc.

There are certainly aspects of it I dont yet observe fully - for reasons that have to do with my place in life, the state of my own beliefs, etc. You dont have to take it all it once.

	20-07-2004 00:29									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's ridiculous. My job is to think and read. So if I'm thinking and reading about physics then I'm working.

I see nothign wrong with reading physics, or thinking about physics (in general)

if it is doing problems for class though, taht is work

Jon Miller