20-07-2004 07:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat No, this is a greedy, ruthless casino owner looking at dollar signs, and escorting her off the property is one way of limiting liability. Rondstadt isn't some poor little waif, so if anything of hers was damaged, missing, or if she was intimidated, harassed, or any other tortious conduct, she could sue the casino's pants off. It may be in bankruptcy and in the process of being sold, but lawsuits filed post-bankruptcy petition can be quite disruptive to sales plans.

And wanting to protect yourself from potentially large liability due solely to the need of some washed-up, has-been of a singer to make a political statement is just being greedy?

Could you tell me where you live so that I may plan an 'accident' for myself on or around your property, since you are obviously not 'greedy' or 'ruthless' enough to not want me to take you to the cleaners in your joke of a court system?

	20-07-2004 07:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Look at this thread... obviously someone cares what they think.

If I want to learn about singing I might be interested in hearing what Rondstadt has to say. But I'm as interested in her opinion about politics as I am in her opinion about plumbing.

	20-07-2004 08:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander If I want to learn about singing I might be interested in hearing what Rondstadt has to say. But I'm as interested in her opinion about politics as I am in her opinion about plumbing.

Music is expression. She expresses her thoughts and feelings in song all the time. Why does expressing it through spoken words make it different?

I think the casino owner (and the audience) overreacted, from what the story says. All she did was dedicate a song to Moore. She didn't endorse everything he says, or even go into specifics (I love how Drudge called it an "Anti-Bush tirade," when Bush apparently wasn't even mentioned, and it certainly wasn't a tirade).

The owner made a big to-do about it and probably gave more ammunition to Moore. On top of that, since Rondstadt was only booked for the one show, the spectacle could serve to alienate far more people from the hotel than it would have had he just let it go and then opted not to hire her again. The story certainly would never have gained national media attention.

So, I suppose he exercised his full rights, but it was done in a stupid, needlessly publicized way.

	20-07-2004 08:32									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Music is expression. She expresses her thoughts and feelings in song all the time. Why does expressing it through spoken words make it different.

They know her music before they hire her?

What do you think would happen to a singer who spontaneously began to belt out 'Deutschland ueber Alles' in New York in the late 40's, or today for that matter?

I would be somewhat surprised if a singer I hired did that.

I feel like I'm talking to that guy with no teeth who always answers wrong on Jeopardy according to History Bites. Timmy, I think his name is.

	20-07-2004 08:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They know her music before they hire her?

Not always...I doubt casino owners personally review the contents of every song in a performer's program, especially very famous ones.

quote: What do you think would happen to a singer who spontaneously began to belt out 'Deutschland ueber Alles' in New York in the late 40's, or today for that matter? I would be somewhat surprised if a singer I hired did that.

How is this relevant to what I was addressing? I was addressing Sikander's objection to singer's expressing themselves through means other than song, as if they had no right to do anything other than sing. I don't see why it makes a difference if they express themselves in song or the spoken word or in oragami, for that matter.

	20-07-2004 09:08									#36
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Who the hell is Linda Rondstadt?

	20-07-2004 09:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who the hell is Linda Rondstadt?

I second that. And why the hell should I care about the hungry hippo?

	20-07-2004 09:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not always...I doubt casino owners personally review the contents of every song in a performer's program, especially very famous ones. How is this relevant to what I was addressing? I was addressing Sikander's objection to singer's expressing themselves through means other than song, as if they had no right to do anything other than sing. I don't see why it makes a difference if they express themselves in song or the spoken word or in oragami, for that matter.

I think casino owners would give their bookers guidelines. Like, I'd like my patrons to be happy, and not get pissed off. Perhaps the patrons would get pissed off because the entertainer thinks that some humongous **** who is very controvertial at the moment due to his active campaigning in multiple countries for left wing causes is a good plan.

You know, they might say, don't hire Castro, or OBL, or Bush for that matter. And don;t hire anyone who is gonna piss off half the audience from one side or the other by saying stupid things.

Common sense, I would have thought.

As a business owner, what my employees say, even the hired monkey out front who is supposed to entertain my clients, is my business. If that monkey pisses off people to the point of them doing violence to parts of the premises, then your damn straight that monkey is gonna be taken out back and shot, double quick.

	20-07-2004 09:22									#39
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Could you miss my point any more?

The theater owner had every right to do what he did--I never argued he didn't, although I think he made a potentially bad move by handling it in the manner he did.

Once again--I was addressing Sikander's objection that singer's political views somehow aren't relevant to their careers. Would you say that to Bob Dylan? Singers often express their views in song, so what difference does it make if they express themselves in words? Why would the medium matter more than the message?

	20-07-2004 09:30									#40
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'as if they had no right to do anything other than sing. I don't see why it makes a difference if they express themselves in song or the spoken word or in oragami'

If you hire Dylan you should know what you are getting. Or you are terminally stupid.

To go a way to agree with you, I think the guy needs to follow up by firing his bookers. The article says that Ronstadt has been doing the same thing in every stop before Vegas.

But still, obviously both he and his patrons were surprised by the spoken message of the artist. You don't like what they say to a room of 5000 people? You got grounds to say, buh-bye!

Your rights to express yourself don't trump my rights to control what happens on my property and goes on in my business. Not even in Canada.

	20-07-2004 09:34									#41
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Are you daft? Or are you just choosing not to read what I said?

quote: The theater owner had every right to do what he did--I never argued he didn't

For pete's sake, that's not what I'm arguing about! It wasn't addressing that to the owner! I'm talking about Sikander!

	20-07-2004 09:38									#42
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quote: as if they had no right to do anything other than sing. I don't see why it makes a difference if they express themselves in song or the spoken word or in oragami

and in bold, in case you are daft and miss half of what you type.

	20-07-2004 09:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither and in bold, in case you are daft and miss half of what you type.

Yes, makes a difference to Sikander. The point was a response to his saying

"If I want to learn about singing I might be interested in hearing what Rondstadt has to say. But I'm as interested in her opinion about politics as I am in her opinion about plumbing."

And my point is that her singing contains expression, just as her words do, so what's the real difference, to him?

	20-07-2004 09:43									#44
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I'm sure.

quote: Music is expression. She expresses her thoughts and feelings in song all the time. Why does expressing it through spoken words make it different?

Duhhh, because the proprietor and his patrons were 'bushwhacked'?

The booker wasn't. The booker should have been led out right after the singer.

	20-07-2004 09:45									#45
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Duhhh, because the proprietor and his patrons were 'bushwhacked'? The booker wasn't. The booker should have been led out right after the singer.

, yet again

I'm not talking about the proprietor, patrons, or the bookers, I'm talking about Sikander. Your continuing to bring up the specifics of this incident, which are NOT what I'm addressing in my comments to Sikander.

I'll phrase it another way, and I'll use plumbing, since then you can't get caught up in the politics sillyness. According to Sikander, a singer shouldn't do anything but sing, as that's all they're experts on. But singers don't just sing "la la la," they express things in their songs--be it love, politics, or plumbing. So if she wrote a song about plumbing, presumably that would be okay, but if she talked about it, suddenly her message is meaningless. My question is, why? The only reason that would be is if one doesn't care about the expression in the songs at all, which would make me wonder why one would even bother to listen to them in the first place.

	20-07-2004 09:54									#46
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And I'm continuing to bring up your own words to you.

Do you see them as stupid or something?

I'm trying to tell you what is wrong with the picture, but all you want to do is asert that Ms. R. is a plumber with rights!

Now, maybe Sikander will agree with you that plumbers should be free to spout off profanities while fixing the toilet, or Marx, or show tunes.

The point is, you are not 'free' to do as you please without consequences.

You may disagree with the people who are pissed off all you wish, but that will not change the fact that people get pissed off when their entertainment is interupted by a charged political topic.

	20-07-2004 09:56									#47
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quote: I'll phrase it another way, and I'll use plumbing, since then you can't get caught up in the politics sillyness. According to Sikander, a singer shouldn't do anything but sing, as that's all they're experts on. But singers don't just sing "la la la," they express things in their songs--be it love, politics, or plumbing. So if she wrote a song about plumbing, presumably that would be okay, but if she talked about it, suddenly her message is meaningless. My question is, why? The only reason that would be is if one doesn't care about the expression in the songs at all, which would make me wonder why one would even bother to listen to them in the first place.

They sound nice.

	20-07-2004 10:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And I'm continuing to bring up your own words to you.

Not very effectively, because it's only showing you're not grasping their meaning and are arguing something that I'm not arguing about. See above.

quote: I'm trying to tell you what is wrong with the picture, but all you want to do is asert that Ms. R. is a plumber with rights!

You're not addressing the problem that I posed to Sikander at all, you're addressing some sort of imagined argument where I'm saying Rondstadt has a right to spout off on her political beliefs as she sees fit sans consequences from employers and audiences. I said no such thing.

quote: Now, maybe Sikander will agree with you that plumbers should be free to spout off profanities while fixing the toilet, or Marx, or show tunes.

And where did I say the plumbers should be free to so on someone else's dime? I would say plumbers should be free to do so without people dismissing their opinions on the matter because they're not 'experts.' That's the heart of the matter--I despise the notion that if one isn't a politician, one's political views are somehow meaningless. That's precisely the problem in our system, I think.

quote: The point is, you are not 'free' to do as you please without consequences.

And where did I say otherwise?

quote: You may disagree with the people who are pissed off all you wish, but that will not change the fact that people get pissed off when their entertainment is interupted by a charged political topic.

And where did I say the people had no right to pissed off about the concert? You're particularly good at the strawmen tonight.

	20-07-2004 10:05									#49
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quote: So if she wrote a song about plumbing, presumably that would be okay, but if she talked about it, suddenly her message is meaningless. My question is, why?

Did she write a song about Mr. Moore that the owner and half the audience just had to hear?

No. She has a very innocuous reputation based on a life time in music, and no doubt the owner himself was a fan. He was there, right? I am. I love Slap Shot and that song ( I think that was her). I can assure you that I would have been very pissed off if she said that at a concert I attended, let alone paid her to perform.

	20-07-2004 10:10									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not very effectively, because it's only showing you're not grasping their meaning and are arguing something that I'm not arguing about. See above.

Au contraire.

Your own words... right to, and such other truffles, are evidence enough as to your intent, no matter how you may disown them once hoisted upon them.

You wish to speak now of plumbers. I see. The sewers are your escape.

No problem. Swim, swim, be free!

	20-07-2004 10:18									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Did she write a song about Mr. Moore that the owner and half the audience just had to hear? No. She has a very innocuous reputation based on a life time in music, and no doubt the owner himself was a fan. He was there, right? I am. I love Slap Shot and that song ( I think that was her). I can assure you that I would have been very pissed off if she said that at a concert I attended, let alone paid her to perform.

*sigh* You're still not getting it, despite my best efforts. I'm off to bed, but I'll try once more. I can see the plumbing tack didn't work as I'd hope, because rather than addressing it, you've gone back to the argument in which you're the only participant, since that's not at all what I'm arguing about.

Strip away the concert, the audience, the owner, the booker, the Moore stuff, and hell, even Rondstadt. We'll strip it down to a some very generic general things: Singer, songs, speaking, plumbing.

Sikander's view (as far as I can tell):

Singer makes song: that's okay.
Singer makes song about plumbing: that's okay, presumably (since a song is in his realm of expertise, whatever the subject matter).
Singer speaks about plumbing: That's stupid, because he's not an 'expert' in plumbing.

I'm saying that I don't find the third proposition necessarily true at all, and I find little difference between one speaking about plumbing and one singing about plumbing. Now, if you don't like plumbing, then I imagine you won't like the song that well. But that's not the point, as I doubt one would say the singer was outstepping his bounds to write the song.

But suddenly if it's not a song, it's just the words, the singer becomes inexpert about plumbing and his meaning/expression or whatever on it worthless. Just doesn't follow, for me.

Note this has NOTHING to do the singer interjecting a surprise lecture on plumbing at his next gig, lest we start any more diversions that aren't relevant.

	20-07-2004 10:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Your own words... right to, and such other truffles, are evidence enough as to your intent, no matter how you may disown them once hoisted upon them.

Oh please. You're really full of yourself now. The only time I used the term "right to" is this:

"I was addressing Sikander's objection to singer's expressing themselves through means other than song, as if they had no right to do anything other than sing."

And if you take that in the context of what Sikander said, the meaning is quite clear. You're just incapable of admitting that you were clueless as to what you were talking about and jumped in with a bunch of assumptions about what was being said instead of actually, you know, reading the points being made. So congratulations, you've wasted both of our time and precious typing power arguing about something that was never a bone of contention in the first place (as I said in my very first damned post).

	20-07-2004 10:27									#53
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Actually, I think he indicated Ms. R. would be an expert at singing, and knew crap about politics (in his opinion).

You seem to have blown that into a craptacular frenzy of rights for plumbers.

Congratulations.

	20-07-2004 10:29									#54
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You to are killing me, either stop fighting or get a room.



ACK!

	20-07-2004 10:32									#55
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That actually has been my intent for the last 5 or so posts. I'm sort of glad that Boris stayed up past beddie bye time.

:kiss smilie:

	20-07-2004 10:33									#56
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Linda Ronstadt, eh? Who'd have thought?

	20-07-2004 10:33									#57
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It's lik a bad "Who's on First?" routine.



ACK!

	20-07-2004 10:38									#58
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Somehow, I just know I've got something coming to me.

I don't know what it is, but I'm sure it is being hoped for right this instant.

	20-07-2004 11:20									#59
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quote: It'll affect your job performance in that it'll limit where you can go in the company.

Just like women have a glass ceiling?

Not my fault, it's theirs, and theirs alone.

quote: You want to keep your employer's opinion of you objective, don't give them anything that can make a bias.

I'd rather have an employer who wants to have me work for them rather than someone who could care less. I'm not out for an 'objective' employer, just as I'm not an objective employee.

I work better for people when I care for them, and for their business rather than maintaining a shroud of objectivity.

quote: nor just idly bringing up "I hate them gays" or "I don't like women makin' any choices!".

Oh shoot. I'll have to be on my best behaviour.

quote: Actually, it would be your loss. Young people fresh out of university with an artsy degree are hardly a rare commodity, you can be replaced easily. Whereas, finding a good job for you is tough.

Arts grads who actually know a thing or two are rare.

And it's not a job after graduation I'm worried about. I already have had several offers.

I just need something in the interim so that I can finish up my school, and pay for the rest myself.

And my employer when I'm done wants me to work for her because of my credentials and my beliefs, so it's all good.

quote: All in all, it'd be your loss.

Someone who shows up to work on time, works hard, gets stuff done, and doesn't show up drunk on the job, or hung over the next morning?

It's their loss, not mine.

It's hard enough finding qualified people without conducting a litmus test.

	20-07-2004 12:05									#60
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Typical of the States. You all whine about free speech and the importance of allowing people to express their ideas to further public debate, and then try to strong arm or organize boycotts against people who say things you don't like. It's not a legal problem or a rights problem, it's a cultural problem with people who aren't prepared to pay the price of what they preach.

A society that values free speech doesn't get its knickers in a twist over what some has been country singer said.

At the SARS concert last year, some of the emcees came out with some typical Islamophobic crap that I can't stand. But did I think that people who disagreed should leave in a huff? No - that would be stupid.