20-07-2004 23:57									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Do I argue that they should be fired from their jobs, or that they should be boycotted? No. Case closed.

Damn I wish I had the quote from you that urged the killing of all conservatives.

	21-07-2004 00:06									#122
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Killing? Maiming perhaps.

	21-07-2004 00:15									#123
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quote: Selleck wasn't attacked for being pro-Bush, he was attacked for being pro-NRA and acting as a spokesman for them in ad campaigns.

Sava said pro-Bush celebrities attacked for their views. Selleck was attacked for his views.

quote: Such people obviously hate the idea that people might express opinions they disagree with, and hate the idea that opinions should not be suppressed so that a free exchange of ideas can take place.

That is probably true... doesn't mean that they don't have to right to boycott however.

quote: If you don't want to hear someone in the public, you opt out- you don't try to remove their ability to speak.

You are removing their abilty to speak to YOU! No one who is boycotting is saying these people can't say what they want ever, they are saying they don't want to hear them. That is a big difference.

quote: Corporations are not private citizens, they are private business organizations and if they are publicly traded, they have thousands of share owners and so forth. Hence private citizen=/ business and its officials.

Interesting distinction you make so you can be allowed to boycott corporations but not people . So what if they are big and composed of a lot of people? It is the same thing.

quote: telling you " I think you are wrong" is not pressure. Telling you "I think you are wrong, and I will make sure you lose financially becuase of it", that is pressure.

Are you saying that in a debate one side doesn't pressure the other to change your mind by their arguments? Seriously? That's the whole point! To use your arguments to disprove your opponents and pressure them with your arguments to see that your way is right and theirs was wrong.

Using finances is simply a way to show your displeasure.

quote: just as voting for a populist demogogue is using your rights to undermine them

How are you undermining your rights by USING them? You are using your right to vote, exercising those rights.

	21-07-2004 00:32									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You are removing their abilty to speak to YOU! No one who is boycotting is saying these people can't say what they want ever, they are saying they don't want to hear them. That is a big difference.

What am I removing? I am saying they are wrong- I have not said what they did should be illegal....first of all. As for hearing people's political opinions: if you don;t want to hear them, fine, don't hear them the thing is most artists don't express their opinions on all their work. I have a friend who won't watch any movies with Charleton Heston becuase he heads the NRA. Well, I find that silly since Heston doesn't spout about gun rights in The Ten Commandments.

quote: Interesting distinction you make so you can be allowed to boycott corporations but not people . So what if they are big and composed of a lot of people? It is the same thing.

AH, NO. The government, after all, is just big and composed of people also. Are you saying corporation=government? That is as wrong as saying individual=corporation.

quote: Are you saying that in a debate one side doesn't pressure the other to change your mind by their arguments? Seriously? That's the whole point! To use your arguments to disprove your opponents and pressure them with your arguments to see that your way is right and theirs was wrong.

If I debate someone, I am presenting information they could use to change their mind. My desire might be to have them change their mind, but in the end the other party is totally free not to do it, and they suffer NOTHING other than lost time if they decided to debate me. A boycott is designed to hurt them financially in order to make them cave in. It is then a punishment for not thinking like you want them to think. That is fundamentally different from telling them you disapprove and telling them why, without forcing them to even listen to you.

quote: Using finances is simply a way to show your displeasure.

Yes, your displeasure that they think otherwise- how enlightened.

quote: How are you undermining your rights by USING them? You are using your right to vote, exercising those rights.

To envoke Godwin cause it is the perfect time- the Germans who voted for Hitler and his radical notions voted in essence to dismantle the very system that gave them the right to vote. I could use my freedom to walk into a cage anbd lock it, thus ending my freedom. Bob could end his "right to bear arms" by using the arm he bears to shoot himself in the head.

Care to say again you can;t use your rights to undermine their use?

	21-07-2004 00:41									#125
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quote: I have a friend who won't watch any movies with Charleton Heston becuase he heads the NRA. Well, I find that silly since Heston doesn't spout about gun rights in The Ten Commandments.

But he's making a statement about Heston's beliefs that he doesn't agree. What is so wrong with that?

quote: The government, after all, is just big and composed of people also. Are you saying corporation=government?

The government has a monopoly on the use of legitimate force. What is the difference between a corporation and individual?

quote: I am presenting information they could use to change their mind.

But you want them to change their mind. Your information and words serve to attempt to pressure them into changing their mind.

quote: A boycott is designed to hurt them financially in order to make them cave in. It is then a punishment for not thinking like you want them to think. That is fundamentally different from telling them you disapprove and telling them why, without forcing them to even listen to you.

No, a boycott, like the on Rondstadt suffered to hurt them financially to say I don't agree with you and won't be supporting your work anymore because I don't like your beliefs. Its not a punishment, it is simply not wanting to support someone who believes that. If a big time actor came out and said the Holocaust was a fake, and someone decided not to ever see a movie of his again, that's a punishment?

quote: To envoke Godwin cause it is the perfect time- the Germans who voted for Hitler and his radical notions voted in essence to dismantle the very system that gave them the right to vote. I could use my freedom to walk into a cage anbd lock it, thus ending my freedom. Bob could end his "right to bear arms" by using the arm he bears to shoot himself in the head.

In neither of those cases did the people undermine their rights... they USED them! Maybe they used their rights so in the future there would be a change in rights, but they still utilized their rights. A vote to eliminate the vote is still using your rights (not undermining them). To undermine your rights, the action must weaken the foundation of use. It's silly to say that the 'use (the action) weakens the foundation of use', because you are using it (using weakens using?). The foundation may be weakened later by those in power, but it is not done so simply by the act of voting (exercising your right). Furthermore undermining usually applies to clandestine attempts to weaken. Voting openly does not apply.

	21-07-2004 00:41									#126
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Boycotting = not supporting your political enemies, not contributing to the financial power of thoses who oppose you, which is what really upsets the lefstist whiners, they have less resources to push their propaganda.

	21-07-2004 00:43									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Many people are fired, and are escorted off the property with their personal items shipped to them... but I guess some people have to make this a right wing vs left wing rant... typical

Ming, you should make better arguments or not try to make arguments at all.

People who are escorted off the property after being fired are usually escorted out of private areas where non-employees aren't normally allowed, where there are work-specific materials or information, owned by the employer, that the employer needs to make sure aren't taken. That's pretty dramatically different from being forced out of your own hotel room, in a public area, and subjected to needless public humiliation as if you were a threat to society.

I'm sure the hotel owner has a legal right to evict whomever he pleases. My point is only that this hostile treatment was primarily political, not business-related. Another performer probably could have gotten up on stage and expressed support for Hitler or the Klan or one of the US-supported dictators, and would not have gotten similar ill treatment.

	21-07-2004 00:46									#128
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That treatment was almsot assureddly the result of her pissing at the cassino, more than once, rather than the one political statment.

	21-07-2004 00:50									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm not kidding... Casinos are in business to make money... anybody that pisses off paying customers is a liability. They would have done the same to either somebody that supported Moore, or bashed Moore, "IF" it cost them "Paying" customers.

That's why I had already acknowledged that terminating her employment made sense. But refusing to let her go back to her room to get her own stuff? Come on, Ming. You know perfectly well that wasn't part of the business decision; it was a political punishment that wouldn't have happened to any right-winger there. It was right-wing PC.

	21-07-2004 00:53									#130
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In light of the reaction of the crowd I would say they were within there rights and handled it appropriately rather than run the risk of her getting involved with an upset patron and allowing a row to start up.

	21-07-2004 00:54									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Wasn't an insult, just an observation

I consider "I guess some people have to make this a right wing vs left wing rant... typical" to be an insulting, as well as erroneous, observation. I'm insulted by the implication that my thinking is habitually knee-jerk.

	21-07-2004 00:55									#132
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quote: I'm insulted by the implication that my thinking is habitually knee-jerk.

Then I suggest you grow thicker skin .

	21-07-2004 01:11									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But he's making a statement about Heston's beliefs that he doesn't agree. What is so wrong with that?

I think it silly to boycott unrelated art due to your opinion of the artists.

quote: The government has a monopoly on the use of legitimate force. What is the difference between a corporation and individual?

Well, the fact a corporation is only an "individual" by a legal contrivance for liability reasons. It shjould be plainly obvious why an individual is NOT the same as a corporation.

quote: But you want them to change their mind. Your information and words serve to attempt to pressure them into changing their mind.

Man, are you being thick or what? Pressure implies the application of some type of force. Unless you are a mental invalid, or under some sort of hypnosis, stating my opinion in no way counts as a method of force, unless I implicitly or explicitly metion possible force being used in the future if you don;t get into line.

quote: No, a boycott, like the on Rondstadt suffered to hurt them financially to say I don't agree with you and won't be supporting your work anymore because I don't like your beliefs. Its not a punishment, it is simply not wanting to support someone who believes that. If a big time actor came out and said the Holocaust was a fake, and someone decided not to ever see a movie of his again, that's a punishment?

well, since the actor already got paid, hardly. And then think about the poor production company.

quote: In neither of those cases did the people undermine their rights... they USED them! Maybe they used their rights so in the future there would be a change in rights, but they still utilized their rights. A vote to eliminate the vote is still using your rights (not undermining them). To underrmine your rights, the action must weaken the foundation of use. It's silly to say that the 'use (the action) weakens the foundation of use', because you are using it (using weakens using?). The foundation may be weakened later by those in power, but it is not done so simply by the act of voting (exercising your right). Furthermore undermining usually applies to clandestine attempts to weaken. Voting openly does not apply.

What? So voting for a man who says democracy is bad is not undermining your democratic rights because..you voted now and the guy cancels democracy later? I know you want to become a lawyer, but this is worse than Clinton's "what is is" bit, much worse.

	21-07-2004 01:13									#134
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quote: Man, are you being thick or what? Pressure implies the application of some type of force. Unless you are a mental invalid, or under some sort of hypnosis, stating my opinion in no way counts as a method of force, unless I implicitly or explicitly metion possible force being used in the future if you don;t get into line.

So you've been using pressure inconsistently, then.

	21-07-2004 01:17									#135
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quote: I think it silly to boycott unrelated art due to your opinion of the artists.

Perhaps it is, but why is that against free speech? Free speech statements can also be silly, but so what?

quote: It shjould be plainly obvious why an individual is NOT the same as a corporation.

In terms of boycots? Not really.

quote: Pressure implies the application of some type of force.

What about the force of your argument? What if your argument is so overwhelming that the other is pressured to change his stance? When, say, a reporter comes in to a Presidential Press Conference with pages and pages of quotes and is trying to get the President (or his spokesman) to admit something in those quotes which he denies, I consider that putting pressure on the President. In fact many people believe that's putting pressure on someone, overwhelming them with facts to change their story.

quote: So voting for a man who says democracy is bad is not undermining your democratic rights because..you voted now and the guy cancels democracy later?

Precisely. You cannot undermine a right by simply exercising it. You cannot undermine the right to vote by voting. In order to undermine the right to vote, you have to prevent others from voting, and that requires other actions apart from voting yourself.

	21-07-2004 01:18									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So you've been using pressure inconsistently, then.

OK... confused:

Whatever.

	21-07-2004 01:19									#137
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Maybe it was Aggie, but no one has been using pressure to mean solely "physical force".

	21-07-2004 01:28									#138
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Get a brain, morans!

	21-07-2004 01:29									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Perhaps it is, but why is that against free speech? Free speech statements can also be silly, but so what?

Yes, people can be stupid. I don;t enshrine or support their stupidity thought.

quote: In terms of boycots? Not really.

The arguement here is not the results of the boycott financially, but the reasons for the boycott.

quote: What about the force of your argument? What if your argument is so overwhelming that the other is pressured to change his stance? When, say, a reporter comes in to a Presidential Press Conference with pages and pages of quotes and is trying to get the President (or his spokesman) to admit something in those quotes which he denies, I consider that putting pressure on the President. In fact many people believe that's putting pressure on someone, overwhelming them with facts to change their story.

"The force of my argument"? IF ONLY my arguments had the type of force I am speaking about, it would be great! Pressure implies that one acts NOT due to free choice, BUT becuase of the wish to end some negative stimuli. It is the difference between asking someone: did you do it? or hitting someone while you are asking them "did you do it!".

We established already you are free to be stupid- if you say the world is flat, then I show you a picture of the earth in space, you know what, you are still free to say "whatever, I trust my eyes, its flat" and move on, and wallow in your stupidity. If I start beating the person with a baseball bat while asking them to recent, THAT is pressure.

In the example you mentioned: the spoekeman is engaged in a bit of interactive political theater- meaning he is there to take questions. If what you describe happens, then you know what, the spokesman is free to say "no comment", or to comment. The president is free to admit a mistake, or not to admit. The fallout is the opinion of others, which people are free to make on their own given the information they have, anyways.

quote: Precisely. You cannot undermine a right by simply exercising it. You cannot undermine the right to vote by voting. In order to undermine the right to vote, you have to prevent others from voting, and that requires other actions apart from voting yourself.

I leave it to others to judge the correctness of each side presented. Cause it is obvious I won;t get throught to you on this point.

	21-07-2004 01:31									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Maybe it was Aggie, but no one has been using pressure to mean solely "physical force".

Financial punishment counts as force- ergo fines and tickets and so forth levied by the state as punishment.

I didn't know someone telling you you are wrong counts as a form of punishment.

	21-07-2004 01:33									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Financial punishment counts as force- ergo fines and tickets and so forth levied by the state as punishment.

Fines are backed up by physical force - you are still "forced".

quote: I didn't know someone telling you you are wrong counts as a form of punishment.

That was my point, that it doesn't.

	21-07-2004 01:36									#142
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Moreover the point wrt financial is that in the instances GePap provided these are punishments. The withholdingof a reward i.e. boycott is not necessarily a punishment as the reward is not guaranteed.

	21-07-2004 02:00									#143
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You are missing Ge Pap's real purpose.
'Artist" tend to be much more leftist, therefore he approves them using their power and influence, including art, for political purposes.
The consumers are too conservative for him, therfore he disapprove of them using their power and influence, such as buying power for political purposes. He is just like the boycotters, trying to reduce the power of his political enemies.
He belives tools used more by his allies are good, and those used more by his ememies are bad, thus hes has to ridiculously twist himself to distinguish be 'good' politically motivated boycott and 'bad' politically motivated boycotts.

	21-07-2004 02:01									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Fines are backed up by physical force - you are still "forced".

Force will be used if the person fined refuses to accept their punishment. If they accept to submit to their due punishment, no force is used. The issue is the fact that we assume making someone pay money out is a possible punishment, as opposed to demanding they be denied freedoms by encarceration, or exile.

	21-07-2004 02:02									#145
	Suffering from ads?

Still, not buying someone's product is not an application of force.

	21-07-2004 02:03									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola You are missing Ge Pap's real purpose. 'Artist" tend to be much more leftist, therefore he approves them using their power and influence, including art, for political purposes. The consumers are too conservative for him, therfore he disapprove of them using their power and influence, such as buying power for political purposes. He is just like the boycotters, trying to reduce the power of his political enemies.

I wonder who this Ge Pap is? Maybe I should sue him for taking a name so similar to mine?

The argument here is whether boycotting people for expressing their political views is simply another example of freedom of speech. If you aren't ready to debate that, then don't waste your time.

	21-07-2004 02:05									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Still, not buying someone's product is not an application of force.

depends on the form of the boycott. If each individual simply decides by themselves not to buy, fine. If a group of individuals get together for the purpose of action, specially carrying out a campaign to undermine financial underwriting for someone, then it is a form of pressure: which is why sucha group would be formed in the first place.

	21-07-2004 02:06									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Selleck wasn't attacked for being pro-Bush, he was attacked for being pro-NRA and acting as a spokesman for them in ad campaigns. Sava said pro-Bush celebrities attacked for their views. Selleck was attacked for his views.

The implication being that they were attacked for being pro-Bush. After all, it's pretty irrelevant if they were attacked for something not related to being pro-Bush, isn't it?

	21-07-2004 02:53									#149
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quote: Maybe it was Aggie, but no one has been using pressure to mean solely "physical force".

Don't misattribute comments to me in order to hide your own incompetence.

	21-07-2004 03:33									#150
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quote: Originally posted by debeest But refusing to let her go back to her room to get her own stuff? Come on, Ming. You know perfectly well that wasn't part of the business decision; it was a political punishment that wouldn't have happened to any right-winger there. It was right-wing PC.

And you know this how? Can you read their minds? You are just assuming... and guessing... and trying to make something out of it that might not be there. It very well could have happened to a right-winger if they had pissed off PAYING CUSTOMERS. The Casino management was PISSED... People come to Vegas to have fun... and the Casino wants them happy and spending money. I think that treatment would have been given to ANYBODY that pissed off paying customers... because that's whats Vegas is all about.

But if you want to make up stuff so you can support your political agenda, feel free... but you obviously don't understand Las Vegas and Casinos. There are NO FACTS to support your assumptions.