23-07-2004 10:15									#1
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Couldn't see a thread on this, so here we go.

What are the Canucks' thoughts of Mr. Martin's selections?

I think we will have another election this year, since there are 0 NDP members on the cabinet.

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OTTAWA (CP) - Prime Minister Paul Martin promised to "hit the ground running" Tuesday with a new cabinet that will get to work quickly on a legislative agenda for his minority Liberal government.

The 39-member team, a blend of veterans and rising new stars, is designed "to deliver real progress on the issues that matter most to Canadians," Martin declared after the swearing-in ceremony at Rideau Hall. "The recent election made it clear that Canadians expect us to do better as a government. We've heard the message and we carry it with us."

The cabinet will hold its first working session Wednesday to start wrestling with the key issues Martin outlined during the election campaign.

Among them are health care reform, a national day-care program, a new deal for cities and a better shake for poverty-stricken aboriginal Canadians.

Many of the key initiatives, however, have been entrusted to cabinet newcomers, raising questions about just how fast the promised policy take-off will be when Parliament meets in October.

There were eight new faces on Martin's team, including former B.C. premier Ujjal Dosanjh, Vancouver forestry executive David Emerson, NHL goaltending great Ken Dryden, former Tory Scott Brison and long-serving backbencher John Godfrey.


A couple of key portfolios remained in steady hands: Ralph Goodale stayed as finance minister and Anne McLellan as deputy prime minister and public safety minister.

Veteran Bill Graham shuffled from Foreign Affairs to Defence, while Pierre Pettigrew moved from Health to replace Graham as foreign minister.

Tony Valeri, a Martin loyalist, abandoned Transport to take over as House leader, a key post in a minority government - but one at which he has no past experience.

"In terms of parliamentary procedure there's obviously a bit for me to learn," Valeri admitted. "But that goes along with any new positron in cabinet."

The big losers were David Anderson of B.C. and Denis Coderre of Quebec, both dropped to make way for fresh faces.

Opposition reaction to the new team was predictably cool.

"The prime minister has put together a team of weak and inexperienced ministers dominated mainly by his loyalists," said Conservative Leader Stephen Harper.

NDP Leader Jack Layton saw little difference from the pre-election cabinet: "You can't really say that Mr. Martin has heard that Canadians were unhappy with his government."

The addition of Dosanjh as health minister and Emerson as industry minister bolstered a Western Canadian contingent that already included heavyweights Goodale from Saskatchewan and McLellan from Alberta.

"I think it does prove the growing importance of Western Canada," said Martin. "It also proves the quality of the kind of people we were able to elect."

OTTAWA (CP) - Some comments Tuesday surrounding the cabinet shuffle by Prime Minister Paul Martin:

"On June 28th, Canadians told us that they expect more from our government and we have been guided by that message in building this new cabinet. Drawing on the experience of veteran ministers who have retained their responsibilities and the talents of new ministers, we are determined to deliver tangible progress on those issues that matter most to Canadians and upon which we campaigned." Prime Minister Paul Martin.

"It is obvious from the choices he has made today that the prime minister has decided to stay the conservative course he set out when he appointed his first cabinet (on Dec. 12)." NDP Leader Jack Layton.

"The prime minister has put together a combination of weak and inexperienced ministers dominated mainly by his loyalists. Unfortunately, the cabinet reflects an old team of Liberals with very few new ideas." Conservative Leader Stephen Harper.

"Martin found room for only eight women at the cabinet table or just 20 per cent of cabinet and not a single member of cabinet is under the age of 35." Green Party Leader Jim Harris.

"The prime minister has retained a solid core of experienced ministers and added some excellent new talent in key portfolios." Thomas D'Aquino, president and CEO of the Canadian Council of Chief Executives.

"So now I have all the ducks in a row. You know the prime minister is back, as is Ralph Goodale, the minister of finance, and they're going to play a key role in this file (on splitting offshore resources with Newfoundland and Labrador). And of course John Efford is back as minister of natural resources so things are falling in line very well." Danny Williams, premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, on cutting a new deal with Ottawa on offshore resources.

"I will comment further in due course." Quebec MP Denis Coderre, in a statement saying he would be taking a vacation after being dumped from cabinet.

	23-07-2004 10:25									#2
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I disagree about the NDP in the cabinet bit. Real coalitions are very uncommon. The last one was WW1. Pearson did not have NDP ministers (IIRC).

Now, the amateur hour could very well get us another election very soon. Minority government is not the best time Martin could have picked to move ahead with the Chretien cleansing. At least he brought Dion back.

	23-07-2004 10:30									#3
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Ujjal Dosanjh as the health minister?

That's enough for me to vote these clowns out. He was a HORRIBLE Premier here in BC, and presided over the crushing defeat of the NDP.

Why they thought he was Health Minister material is beyond me.

quote: I disagree about the NDP in the cabinet bit.

Would you rather have Mr. Layton in charge of the cities portfolio, or a rookie minister?

If I'm not mistaken that was the primary reason for the folks in Ontario to stand by their Liberal men.

	23-07-2004 11:06									#4
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No, I think it was because they got scared out of the alternatives and opted for another 4(?) years of the familiar, for the most part.

The NDP don't have to be in cabinet to have a large influence on legislation. They would however have to be able to deliver a safe majority, which they can't so you can chuck that scenario.

It's gonna be some wide open wheeling and dealing. The Conservatives will want to avoid appearing spiteful at all costs. Martin will want to provoke his own defeat at a place and time of his own choosing while not appearing to do so.

Look for a break with the Bloc soon. Then he can use antipathy from that party along with a money bill the Conservatives have to vote no on to bring on the next election. That's one scenario.

	23-07-2004 11:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ujjal Dosanjh as the health minister? That's enough for me to vote these clowns out. He was a HORRIBLE Premier here in BC, and presided over the crushing defeat of the NDP. Why they thought he was Health Minister material is beyond me.

Yeah, imagine appointing a lawyer and ex-premier to a cabinet position that will involve extensive negotiations with provincial premiers.

	23-07-2004 11:16									#6
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quote: Look for a break with the Bloc soon. Then he can use antipathy from that party along with a money bill the Conservatives have to vote no on to bring on the next election. That's one scenario.

Or the Conservatives can pull Lafontaine out of the bag, and try to take the Federalist vote in Quebec.

Stranger things have happened.

Not many of the former Quebec Power brokers (that I see), on the Cabinet.

And why would they vote for a man who has already shown that he can't close the deal like Chretien?

	23-07-2004 11:19									#7
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quote: Yeah, imagine appointing a lawyer and ex-premier to a cabinet position that will involve extensive negotiations with provincial premiers.

Gee. I see Campbell getting along just fine with his archnemesis.

Same with Ralph Klein.

I can't see him being able to broker any deals, particularly when he wants to stem the tide of privatisation here in Canada.

Are they going to nationalise all the private clinics across Canada to hold the line?

	23-07-2004 11:27									#8
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archnemesis

You don't understand how politics works. Just because they're in different parties doesn't mean they hate it other.

	23-07-2004 11:28									#9
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Dosanjh is a weakness and a strength. He has a history, but he also knows where the ten premiers are coming from. He could be really good, or a disaster.

	23-07-2004 11:34									#10
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quote: Just because they're in different parties doesn't mean they hate it other.

No, but it doesn't bode well for a constructive relationship.

They are practically polar opposites on this issue of health care, and I can't remember the last time a health minister faced off against the man who crushed him in the last election.

Would you be inclined to treat him like everyone else?

	23-07-2004 11:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Or the Conservatives can pull Lafontaine out of the bag, and try to take the Federalist vote in Quebec. Stranger things have happened. Not many of the former Quebec Power brokers (that I see), on the Cabinet. And why would they vote for a man who has already shown that he can't close the deal like Chretien?

We're a way away from that, unless Harper is one helluva leader and can secure the firm support of a federalist in Quebec with very much gravitas. Do you know anyone like that?

He'd also have to be seen to be cracking down on the loony right within his own caucus. I don't know if he wants to do that, given his feelings about the proper place of MPs. However, the party has shown some inclings towards discipline so who knows.

But you are onto something. Government in Canada is in serious trouble until at least two federalist parties can run, and win, in Quebec. Having to form a government without any of those 75 seats is a very high hill to climb.

	23-07-2004 11:45									#12
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It was Manning's old dream, and his primary motivation for transforming the Reformers in the West. He wanted the party to appeal to folks across the country, but particularly in Quebec.

That's where I got the idea, so I have to give credit where credit is due.

quote: Do you know anyone like that?

None better than the man who narrowly missed the debacle under Campbell.

Do you think Charest can get out the vote in Quebec?

quote: He'd also have to be seen to be cracking down on the loony right within his own caucus. I don't know if he wants to do that, given his feelings about the proper place of MPs.

By loony right I suppose you mean folks like me. It's not a liability, despite what many would say. People would rather have someone who is forthright, even if he tends to be socially conservative, rather than someone who appears to have a hidden agenda, by not speaking his mind.

I don't think Harper's approach will kill him, rather it's going to allow for a broader tent, than a more rigid form of discipline would allow.

	23-07-2004 11:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, but it doesn't bode well for a constructive relationship. They are practically polar opposites on this issue of health care, and I can't remember the last time a health minister faced off against the man who crushed him in the last election. Would you be inclined to treat him like everyone else?

Yes, they would treat each others as equals because
Dosanjh has been a premier and that's something very few people have done (this should be obvious).

Dosanjh knows about the challenges a provincial government faces when dealing with health care. He knows the constraints. He understands how the system works.

Yes, the Liberals/NDP/Conservatives have different opinions about how to deal with the problems and that's where his negotiating skills come into play.

To suggest that he is not qualified is simply stupid.

	23-07-2004 11:57									#14
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No, Ben. I think loonies would be people who cannot recognise that they are members of a party. People who don't realise that when they answer the call from the media they are not just speaking for themselves. People who place one issue over all else. Loons, in federal politics.

Many Liberals are capable of doing that. They put contentious issues aside when it comes to party politics, like elections. That is why the Liberals have people who are for 'traditional' marriage and others who are for some restrictions on abortion, but they do not come across as loons.

The media going on witch hunts doesn't help either, but hey, if no one jumped at the chance to be the media's witch the hunts wouldn't go on very long.

But we are speaking of what will win in Quebec. Not even a sainted Charest could make the party of this last election win in Quebec. You have to be realistic.

	23-07-2004 12:33									#15
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Ben, you have one seriously skewed view of what political reality in Canada is.

I'm as much of an extremist as you are, but at least I can separate what I wish were true from what I know is true.

	23-07-2004 20:51									#16
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I think the cabinet is ridiculously ****ing large. I counted 38 members; that's almost 30% of the entire Liberal caucus, and isn't far off the size of some provincial legislatures (it's already bigger than PEI's).

For instance, we've got a Minister of Health, a Minister of State for Public Health, and a Minister of State for Families and Caregivers. WTH do the latter two do that can't be covered by the first? (I do realize there's some distinction between Minister of State and full Minister, but I'd be surprised if it amounts to much other than an excuse to give two more MPs a better seat at the trough)

	23-07-2004 20:58									#17
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed optimus. I thought that perhaps it was just common for Canada to have massive cabinets .

	23-07-2004 21:05									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed optimus. I thought that perhaps it was just common for Canada to have massive cabinets .

It is common, and it's probably rediculous at the same time.

	23-07-2004 21:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed optimus. I thought that perhaps it was just common for Canada to have massive cabinets .

This one is fairly large by our standards.

AFAIK the average Cabinet size is about 25.

It might have expanded in recent years however.

	24-07-2004 01:25									#20
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quote: I'm as much of an extremist as you are, but at least I can separate what I wish were true from what I know is true.

Well, I've seen Dosanjh, and I think he will be a horrible Health minister given his record here in BC.

You are certainly entitled to disagree with me here, but I do not think that him being a caretaker of the NDP is anything to assist a resume.

He did not win an election here in BC, rather, he was appointed by a party that anticipated defeat.

Secondly, what did he do as the Premier of BC? Nothing. He took trips to India instead of calling a sitting of the legislature, and frequently took time off to inspect the renovations to his home.

	24-07-2004 01:27									#21
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quote: The media going on witch hunts doesn't help either, but hey, if no one jumped at the chance to be the media's witch the hunts wouldn't go on very long.

Ms. Hot Cross Buns didn't seem hurt despite her lies in the Commons.

Once again, she got elected.

Why one standard for Conservatives, and another for Liberals? At least the Conservatives can only be charged with a difference in opinion, and not outright distortion.

	24-07-2004 02:18									#22
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Did anyone see Scott Brison being sworn in? He made an ass of himself trying to read his oath in French... he's obviously never spoken it before.

	24-07-2004 04:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ms. Hot Cross Buns didn't seem hurt despite her lies in the Commons. Once again, she got elected. Why one standard for Conservatives, and another for Liberals? At least the Conservatives can only be charged with a difference in opinion, and not outright distortion.

You are right that there is a double standard. The trouble is that many people expected the Conservatives to have a lot of loons from the right, their opponents and some in the media encouraged that perception, AND THEN you had candidates jumping up and doing the Arnold Horshack.

Harper was doing a great job of representing that Conservatives don't have horns. Trouble is that people like Gallant and White then put the doubt back in peoples' minds with stupid, stupid comments. That allowed Martin to get out the boots and lay them into Harper on health care while the Conservatives were in disarray and having to argue about troglodytes again.

It ain't fair. It's politics.

	24-07-2004 09:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You are certainly entitled to disagree with me here, but I do not think that him being a caretaker of the NDP is anything to assist a resume. He did not win an election here in BC, rather, he was appointed by a party that anticipated defeat. Secondly, what did he do as the Premier of BC? Nothing. He took trips to India instead of calling a sitting of the legislature, and frequently took time off to inspect the renovations to his home.

Stop lying Ben.

Dosanjh did not take "trips" to India while premier. He took one trip for a family holiday. Everyone is entitled to a vacation.

While he was in India, he took time out from his vacation to drum up business for BC. What happens? Conservative extremists crucify him for trying to help the BC economy. The nerve of the guy!

And are you serious criticising him for going home? Do you seriously think that a premier must work seven days a week, 24 hours a day?

And get your story straight. If he did nothing, as you claim, then that wouldn't make him a horrible premier. If he was a caretaker for a party anticipating defeat (your words) then it is not realistic to expect a lot.

You can't have it both ways.

And even you must be able to admit that he was a premier during a major global recession following the collapse of the Internet bubble. To suggest that the NDP was soley responsible for the economic problems in BC is ludicrous.

	24-07-2004 23:31									#25
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quote: Dosanjh did not take "trips" to India while premier. He took one trip for a family holiday. Everyone is entitled to a vacation.

At the expense of the taxpayer?

quote: While he was in India, he took time out from his vacation to drum up business for BC. What happens? Conservative extremists crucify him for trying to help the BC economy. The nerve of the guy!

Did he go to visit family, or was this a trade junket? Make up your mind.

quote: And are you serious criticising him for going home? Do you seriously think that a premier must work seven days a week, 24 hours a day?

No, I criticise him for how he conducted himself as Premier in taking a vacation when Parliament should have been sitting.

quote: And get your story straight. If he did nothing, as you claim, then that wouldn't make him a horrible premier. If he was a caretaker for a party anticipating defeat (your words) then it is not realistic to expect a lot.

True, but it doesn't mean that he gets all the credit he has been getting for being a Premier.

Seems he's getting all the credit, without having done much of the work normally associated with the position.

quote: And even you must be able to admit that he was a premier during a major global recession following the collapse of the Internet bubble. To suggest that the NDP was soley responsible for the economic problems in BC is ludicrous.

I blame the NDP for overspending and saddling BC with a 4 billion dollar deficit, not the recession. If they had showed some fiscal restraint, we would be in a much better position now.

	25-07-2004 00:24									#26
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lol, a few points

The new Cabinet - same **** in a larger bag.

It will be the committees that will be important in the upcoming session. Opposition parties now form majorities in committee and will have more say in how they run (ie the Liberal shut down when things get embarrassing will be thwarted).

and a final note....

Rae wasn't responsible for his disastrous government in Ontario and apparently Dosanjh is not responsible in BC. Bad times everywhere to blame. I find it strange how NDP and bad times seem to go together.....

	25-07-2004 00:28									#27
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..and another thing


Mr Martin claims he wanted a Cabinet that could "hit the ground running"....

I guess they have a long way to reach the ground since they won't be returning till October. Another case of Martin saying one thing and doing another.

	25-07-2004 10:14									#28
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I guess the question has already been raised but WTF do we need so many 'extra departments of redundancy and superfluity'?

This country has fought wars with smaller cabinets.

The problem is that 'cabinet level representation' is a symbolic sop thrown to some constituency, and pretty meaningless. More voices means less hearing.

Does anyone think that the 'Honourable Minister for Silly Walks' or whatever special interest is going to get the same level of attention as 'real' ministers with real portfolios?

They should seriously consolidate the number of ministers. Particularly in Health those are jobs that should be done within the existing non-elected bureacracy.

	25-07-2004 11:23									#29
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You are right that there is a double standard. The trouble is that many people expected the Conservatives to have a lot of loons from the right, their opponents and some in the media encouraged that perception, AND THEN you had candidates jumping up and doing the Arnold Horshack. arper was doing a great job of representing that Conservatives don't have horns. Trouble is that people like Gallant and White then put the doubt back in peoples' minds with stupid, stupid comments. That allowed Martin to get out the boots and lay them into Harper on health care while the Conservatives were in disarray and having to argue about troglodytes again. It ain't fair. It's politics.

Well, the fact that Harper said that he'd let backbenchers determine social policy and then there were these backbenchers explaning what social policy they want wasn't a winning combination.

I wouldn't say that there necessarily is a double standard. People don't vote for Liberal or NDP MPs. People vote for the NDP or the Liberals. The opinions of individual NDP or Liberal MPs determine party policy, but they vote as a block so individual loons don't really matter.

Eh.

	25-07-2004 11:24									#30
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BTW, there aren't enough women in the cabinet.