25-07-2004 14:28									#31
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You are right that there is a double standard. The trouble is that many people expected the Conservatives to have a lot of loons from the right, their opponents and some in the media encouraged that perception, AND THEN you had candidates jumping up and doing the Arnold Horshack. arper was doing a great job of representing that Conservatives don't have horns. Trouble is that people like Gallant and White then put the doubt back in peoples' minds with stupid, stupid comments. That allowed Martin to get out the boots and lay them into Harper on health care while the Conservatives were in disarray and having to argue about troglodytes again. It ain't fair. It's politics. Well, the fact that Harper said that he'd let backbenchers determine social policy and then there were these backbenchers explaning what social policy they want wasn't a winning combination. I wouldn't say that there necessarily is a double standard. People don't vote for Liberal or NDP MPs. People vote for the NDP or the Liberals. The opinions of individual NDP or Liberal MPs determine party policy, but they vote as a block so individual loons don't really matter. Eh.

Uhhhh.... it's Liberal back benchers who have brought these issues to the House as private members bills recently, bills which normally do not get tied to party discipline.

Also, apparently, you can vote for an NDP candidate and have that potential MP walk out of the House when issues like abortion and same sex marriage come up. How much a part of the block is that?

Can you come up with a real excuse for the double standard?

	25-07-2004 20:35									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi At the expense of the taxpayer? Did he go to visit family, or was this a trade junket? Make up your mind.

More lies.

The trip was not at the taxpayer's expense. He paid for it himself.

You criticise him for taking a holiday and then you criticise him for working on a holiday.

Even for you, this is lame.

It was a private trip at his own expense. While he was there, he tried to drum up business for BC. Only a lunatic like you would complain about this.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but it doesn't mean that he gets all the credit he has been getting for being a Premier.

He did an okay job.

At least he wasn't convicted of a crime like Campbell. He didn't use his office to sell his fantasy like Vander Zalm. He didn't commit insider trading like Bennett.

By BC standards, Dosanjh wasn't too bad.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I blame the NDP for overspending and saddling BC with a 4 billion dollar deficit, not the recession. If they had showed some fiscal restraint, we would be in a much better position now.

You're such a hypocrite. You defend Bush's massive overspending and then criticise the NDP when it runs a relatively small deficit.

	27-07-2004 06:46									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: You defend Bush's massive overspending and then criticise the NDP when it runs a relatively small deficit.

Where do I defend the budget deficits of Bush?

I agree with cutting taxes provided those cuts are also matched by cuts in spending.

quote: By BC standards, Dosanjh wasn't too bad.

Which says much more about BC than about Dosanjh.

quote: At least he wasn't convicted of a crime like Campbell.

And he didn't refurbish his deck...

Funny how you forgot to mention all that in your analysis of prior premiers.

quote: It was a private trip at his own expense. While he was there, he tried to drum up business for BC. Only a lunatic like you would complain about this.

Seems I'm going to have to dig up more dirt on Dosanjh. What a shame.

And for the record, just because I disagree with you does not make you a lunatic, anymore than it makes me one.

	27-07-2004 11:37									#34
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Where do I defend the budget deficits of Bush? I agree with cutting taxes provided those cuts are also matched by cuts in spending.

So you believe that Bush has done a horrible job by running up a massive record deficit? Good to see you have some sense.

If you hate the fact that the NDP had some deficit budgets then you must be able to give credit to Dosanjh for balancing the budget and having a surplus during his time as premier. (2000-01 $1.1 billion surplus and the NDP also ran a surplus budget in 99-00)

Then Campbell takes power and what does he do? He wipes out the surplus and runs a massive deficit.

So unless you're a hypocrite, you must be willing to give the Dosanjh and the NDP credit for operating surplus budgets while criticising Campbell and Bush for their deficit budgets.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And for the record, just because I disagree with you does not make you a lunatic, anymore than it makes me one.

We can disagree on many things and I wouldn't call you a lunatic, but if you complain about a politician working on his vacation then, yes, I'd have to call you crazy.

	27-07-2004 23:40									#35
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: NDP also ran a surplus budget in 99-00)

Ah, the Fudge-it budget.

The most notorious 'balanced' budget ever.

How many costs were offloaded to future years so that there could be a balanced budget for one year only?

And even then, it's touch and go whether it comes out black or red.

I'm not complaining about Dosanjh working on vacation. I complain that he's off on a junket when he should be working.

quote: So you believe that Bush has done a horrible job by running up a massive record deficit? Good to see you have some sense.

I think he's hamstrung by a Congress that will not approve of cuts to social programs.

quote: He wipes out the surplus and runs a massive deficit.

He inherited a deficit of 4 Billion dollars,
which is now up to a projected surplus of 500 million.

His last budget projected at 2 billion in deficit came in at about 1.2 billion in deficit, so that's not too shabby.

http://www.bcliberals.com/news/spee...ech02120301.asp

Had to wade through the morass of NDP spin on this budget.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/

	27-07-2004 23:49									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

[threadjack from a non-canuck]

quote: BTW, there aren't enough women in the cabinet.

I just hate it when people insist that women should be in power just because they are women. Would it be impossible to consider that, you know, Martin actually selected the best persons for the job?

[/threadjack from a non-canuck]

	27-07-2004 23:52									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: just hate it when people insist that women should be in power just because they are women. Would it be impossible to consider that, you know, Martin actually selected the best persons for the job?

Fervant reactionary.

	27-07-2004 23:54									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by VJ [threadjack from a non-canuck] I just hate it when people insist that women should be in power just because they are women. Would it be impossible to consider that, you know, Martin actually selected the best persons for the job? [/threadjack from a non-canuck]

There is no "best persons" - we're talking about politicians.

	27-07-2004 23:59									#39
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As for BC politics and politicians - it has always been a toss-up on whether there is more loons and shysters (sp?) in the BC legislature or the Vancouver Stock Exchange.

I do not have a favourable memory of a single BC politician.
(former British Columbian of 27 years)

	28-07-2004 09:00									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ben: You're making up facts, telling outright lies and grasping for straws.

Why are you doing that? Why are you ignoring the facts? Why are you criticising him for taking a holiday when everyone takes a holiday? Why are you criticising him for going to his house?

Could it be connected to Dosanjh's religion?

One thing is clear. The NDP were fiscally responsible. Campbell's Liberals are not.

FACT: The NDP produced a budget with a $29 million surplus in 1999/2000 and a $1.6 billion surplus in 2000/01 as confirmed by the BC Auditor-General.

See page 32 of the 2001/02 Auditor-General report (released when the Liberals were in office)
http://bcauditor.com/PUBS/2001-02/R...GovFinances.pdf

FACT: The Liberals took power and produced a budget with a massive deficit of $3.4 billion in 2001/02, largely the result of $2 billion in tax cuts to the rich.

http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/bgt20...002_summary.htm

That increased to another gigantic deficit of $3.8 billion in 2002/02
http://www.bcbudget.gov.bc.ca/bgt20...003_summary.htm

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm not complaining about Dosanjh working on vacation. I complain that he's off on a junket when he should be working.

Junket? Repeat after me, he paid for his trip. It was a personal vacation. It was a holiday.

Stop lying.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think he's hamstrung by a Congress that will not approve of cuts to social programs.

Social programmes have been cut, but it would be impossible to cut $450 billion in social programs. Besides, IIRC, the Republicans control the US Congress.

The fact is that Bush has created a massive deficit. If you are opposed to deficit spending then you must be opposed to Bush. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

	28-07-2004 10:09									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by VJ [threadjack from a non-canuck] I just hate it when people insist that women should be in power just because they are women. Would it be impossible to consider that, you know, Martin actually selected the best persons for the job? [/threadjack from a non-canuck]

Well, yes, but the current system is setup in a way that prevents women from acquiring the trivial qualifications needed to be Cabinet material.

Democracy works because it is representative, because it keeps the government in touch and gives it a mandate. A Swedish-style, or a German-style, or a Kiwi-style parliamentary system is at least as effective as our current one, except that they lack our system's bias in favour of the oligarchic plurality and represent the populace better.

	28-07-2004 12:27									#42
	Tired of ads?

Someone accusing the opponents of the NDP in BC of lying seems rather rich. Didn't the NDP produce a budget for an election, win the election, and then go 'oops'?

I seem to recall something like that. It might explain how they got murdered in the next election.

	28-07-2004 14:19									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, Clark used excessively optimistic forecasts that turned out to be wrong, but these were forecasts.

Even if he was deliberately lying that doesn't justify Ben's lying here and now.

I'm no fan of Clark so if you want to call him a liar, go ahead, I won't argue about it. He was the worst thing that happened to the NDP.

	29-07-2004 03:12									#44
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Someone accusing the opponents of the NDP in BC of lying seems rather rich. Didn't the NDP produce a budget for an election, win the election, and then go 'oops'?

Yep, the Fudge it budget.

	29-07-2004 03:16									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Why are you doing that? Why are you ignoring the facts? Why are you criticising him for taking a holiday when everyone takes a holiday?

quote: Why are you criticising him for going to his house?

quote: Could it be connected to Dosanjh's religion?

Here's a quote for you, Tingkai, from a guest columnist to the Indo-Canadian voice.

"I became media spokesperson for Dosanjh during his NDP leadership bid because Ujjal couldn’t talk to the media without creating problems. In 2000 I joined Dosanjh’s senior staff in the Premier’s office. He should have called an early election, but he was busy with personal matters such as moving out of his constituency and into a more befitting home on Southwest Marine Drive. Following a holiday to India in December 2000, he returned to receive reports that the NDP was on the verge of a total wipeout. I urged him to prepare for the election; he said that he was going to leave for China on a Team Canada Mission. I resigned in disgust. I believe that lobbying for an appointment to the senate may have been his priority, but right or wrong, subsequent events have shown that Dosanjh is focused on himself."

http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2004/Ujjal.html

Racist?

That's laughable. If people inside the Indo-Canadian community raise the same complaints that I do, it can hardly be that I am bigoted against Sikhs.

	29-07-2004 03:20									#46
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As for the massive deficits in Campbell's first two budgets, more than half of the deficits come from offloaded NDP responsibilities.

Yes, Campbell incurred larger deficits through tax cuts, but he did so with the longer goal of eliminating the structural deficit, rather than keeping it at 2 billion dollars.

We will be better off in the next 4 years, then we would have been with a structural deficit of 2 billion a year incurred by the NDP's commitments.

Campbell had to kick-start the moribund BC economy, such that we are no longer a have-not province, as we became under NDP administration.

	29-07-2004 03:24									#47
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Besides, IIRC, the Republicans control the US Congress.

The Yanks will correct you on that. They do not control the Senate.

quote: The fact is that Bush has created a massive deficit. If you are opposed to deficit spending then you must be opposed to Bush. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Lesser of two evils. If one is a fiscal conservative, why would you support the expansion of the state under the Democrats, and under Kerry?

Kerry would simply raise taxes in order to make his budget which will eventually produce deficits in the longer term.

	29-07-2004 03:31									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

bush claims to be a fiscal conservative and isnt. actions speak louder than words. And liars are bad

	29-07-2004 03:32									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Kerry would simply raise taxes in order to make his budget which will eventually produce deficits in the longer term.

tax the rich!!!

	29-07-2004 03:36									#50
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: The Yanks will correct you on that. They do not control the Senate.

Um.. yes they do.

	29-07-2004 03:48									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The Yanks will correct you on that. They do not control the Senate.

Yes they do.

	29-07-2004 03:48									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Crap. Missed Imran's post.

	29-07-2004 03:49									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: Kerry would simply raise taxes in order to make his budget which will eventually produce deficits in the longer term

Only if you believe a bunch of hogwash.

	29-07-2004 04:06									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Um.. yes they do.

I thought it was equally divided between the republicans and the democrats.

	29-07-2004 04:08									#55
	Remove this text

quote: Only if you believe a bunch of hogwash.

That Kerry will raise taxes?

I think it's a given from a senator from Taxachusetts.

As for whether further deficits will be incurred, I think that is something for the economists to determine.

Do we have any on Poly?

	29-07-2004 04:12									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I thought it was equally divided between the republicans and the democrats.

There has been an election between that point in time and now (ie, the 2002 elections where the Republicans made somme good gains).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress

Seats by party (108th Congress, 2003-2005)

* Senate:
o Republican Party: 51
o Democratic Party: 48
o Independent: 1 (James Jeffords (I-Vt.) caucuses with the Democrats.)
o Note: A three-fifths majority is required to end debate. See filibuster.

* House of Representatives:
o Republican Party: 228
o Democratic Party: 206
o Independent: 1 (Bernard Sanders (I-Vt.) member of the Democratic Socialists of America.)

	29-07-2004 04:13									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I thought it was equally divided between the republicans and the democrats.

That was before the senate vote in 2002.

Have you been asleep for 2 years?

	29-07-2004 04:14									#58
	Got spare money?

Thanks Imran.

So why hasn't Bush tried to cut spending in the US?

	29-07-2004 04:14									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Goddamnit you're pissing me off Imran.

	29-07-2004 04:14									#60
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

LOL, I beat you again!