29-07-2004 13:01									#91
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The publisher probably didn't disagree strongly with them, either. Usually a small publisher would have a pretty good idea what a guest columnist was going to say, don't you think?

A good newspaper, large or small, provides a balance of viewpoints. Smaller newspapers are more inclined to print anything just to fill space.

All of this is beside the point.

Ben srongly implied that the article was written by an Indo-Canadian. He was wrong.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Anyways, I did a little looking on my own. It seems Dosanjh pissed off more people in the NDP more deeply than anyone else. That author was an NDP activist afterall, and it is his estimation of Dosanjh's character that Ben highlighted.

No, Ben did not mention anything about Dosanjh being a turncoat (the writer's praise).

Also, the article does not claim that Dosanjh's was a terrible premier, but rather blames him for losing the election. This is completely different from Ben's groundless attacks.

Ben's attacks are lame and based on lies.

	29-07-2004 13:10									#92
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Ben said the guy was useless as premier. The writer, an NDP activist, quit because the guy was busy playing games with Chretien when his party was in trouble. How good a premier was he if he wasn't even looking after his own party?

	29-07-2004 13:59									#93
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I've heard a lot about what happened to BC. I've read it in the paper. I've heard it from relatives who live there. I have a hard time believing that it is all conservative hooey. Maybe, but I doubt it.

Wow, the extreme right wing Fraser Institute doesn't like the NDP. What a surprise.



Yes, Alberta and Ontario outpaced BC in economic growth.

That doesn't mean that BC was going backwards. BC's economy was growing.

	29-07-2004 14:08									#94
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ben said the guy was useless as premier. The writer, an NDP activist, quit because the guy was busy playing games with Chretien when his party was in trouble. How good a premier was he if he wasn't even looking after his own party?

Shrenck suggests that Dosanjh was gunning for a senate seat, but where's the proof?

We're all agreed that Dosanjh wasn't an incredibly great premier. He failed the NDP (although the fault and responsibility lies more with Clark). But that doesn't make him a horrible premier as Ben claims.

All we have is Ben complaining that Dosanjh spent time at his house and worked while on a person vacation.

Even you would admit that's pretty lame when it comes to political character assassination.

And balanced against that is the fact that the NDP produced two surplus budgets before and while Dosanjh was in office.

Edit: Not only was the economy growing during the NDP government, but also unemployment consistently fell from 10.2% in 1991 to 7.2% in 2000.

	29-07-2004 22:41									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Wow, the extreme right wing Fraser Institute doesn't like the NDP. What a surprise. Yes, Alberta and Ontario outpaced BC in economic growth. That doesn't mean that BC was going backwards. BC's economy was growing.

Stats Can has similar numbers for BC over the 90s. Decline in relative incomes vs all of Canada, not just Alberta and Ontario.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/031106/d031106a.htm

quote: Most provincial and territorial residents have similar amounts to spend on goods or services or to invest in savings on a relative basis. However, Albertans and British Columbians have seen their relative positions change. Albertans’ share of PDI has expanded, while British Columbia’s residents have seen their relative position deteriorate. British Columbians’ PDI is now less than the national average on a per capita basis.

Is Stats Can extremely right wing?

	30-07-2004 03:04									#96
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quote: Yes, I suggest the next time you have to pay sales tax, say you're withholding it on the authority of the Archangel Gabriel and see where it gets you.

Render unto Caesar...

	30-07-2004 03:07									#97
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quote: Ben srongly implied that the article was written by an Indo-Canadian. He was wrong.

Written by a guest columnist for the Indo-Canadian voice, were my words, which is precisely what that article says.

And thank you NYE for recognising that it is very credible evidence to cite someone who is on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

	30-07-2004 03:09									#98
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quote: We're all agreed that Dosanjh wasn't an incredibly great premier. He failed the NDP (although the fault and responsibility lies more with Clark). But that doesn't make him a horrible premier as Ben claims.

That makes him a useless Premier, and by extension we would expect a useless Health Minister, if that is all he has to his credit.

	30-07-2004 07:46									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That makes him a useless Premier, and by extension we would expect a useless Health Minister, if that is all he has to his credit.

Give it up Ben. Your conservative lies have been exposed.

	30-07-2004 07:49									#100
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Stats Can has similar numbers for BC over the 90s. Decline in relative incomes vs all of Canada, not just Alberta and Ontario. http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/031106/d031106a.htm

Your link shows that with Gordon "I only had one" Campbell in power, BC has underperformed the rest of Canada. It doesn't refer to when the NDP were in power.

This is why the Liberals are heading to defeat. People in BC are fed up with Liberals mismanagement. Latest polls show support for the NDP is at 45%, Libs at 33% and Greens get 14%.

Campbell has screwed up big time. He should have been working instead of getting drunk in Hawaii.

	30-07-2004 07:53									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Written by a guest columnist for the Indo-Canadian voice, were my words, which is precisely what that article says.

Words followed in short order in the same post by:

'That's laughable. If people inside the Indo-Canadian community raise the same complaints that I do...'

the implication being the author was of the community or spoke for the community.

Disingenuous at best, big porky fibber by another reading.

	30-07-2004 08:36									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Your link shows that with Gordon "I only had one" Campbell in power, BC has underperformed the rest of Canada. It doesn't refer to when the NDP were in power. This is why the Liberals are heading to defeat. People in BC are fed up with Liberals mismanagement. Latest polls show support for the NDP is at 45%, Libs at 33% and Greens get 14%. Campbell has screwed up big time. He should have been working instead of getting drunk in Hawaii.

Damn. Somehow I linked the wrong page. The bit I quoted from came from here:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freep...vincial/pdi.htm

It is a link removed from that first page.

	30-07-2004 08:41									#103
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Oh, and in that 2002 snap shot, they outperformed all other Western provinces, including Alberta. Yeah, I'd say Campbell must be on the wrong track.

	30-07-2004 09:27									#104
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Damn. Somehow I linked the wrong page. The bit I quoted from came from here: http://www.statcan.ca/english/freep...vincial/pdi.htm It is a link removed from that first page.

Looking at the actual numbers shows the issue is more complex.
http://www.statcan.ca/english/freep...ables/pdi01.htm

Up until 1996, Alta, BC and Ont are fairly close in PDI/capita. Then something happens in 1997. PDI/capita in BC continues to grow throughoutthe NDP years, but is outpaced by Alta and Ont.

BC wasn't going backwards, but rather incomes grew faster in Alta and Ont and that affected the national average.

So what happened in Alta and Ont from 97 onwards? The Alta numbers really start shooting up during 1999-2001.

Is the IT economy? Oil?

	30-07-2004 09:29									#105
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, and in that 2002 snap shot, they outperformed all other Western provinces, including Alberta. Yeah, I'd say Campbell must be on the wrong track.

And BC underperform compared to the national average and compared to Eastern Canada. Yes, Campbell is on the wrong track.

	30-07-2004 09:36									#106
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Heh. This is really pretty funny. Blame the government for everything that goes wrong. Praise it for everything that goes right. My spirit really isn't in it, because I think it's hogwash.

I'm fairly sure the government of Saskatchwan did not order a drought that went on for many years, and now the surplus of rain that is causing disease in crops long starved for water. Likewise, I don't think a single mad cow came from there, unless they snuck a few of the loons across the border at Lloyd while we in Alberta weren't looking.

I've done some more checking. It confirmed what people in BC were telling me. The 90's were tough on them and it hasn't really stopped although it seems to be getting a bit better since '98 or so.

per capita income in 1990 was $29,088 in fixed dollars. In 1998 it was $29,094. A $6 dollar increase with five years of decreases mixed in. Woot! They started the 90's with a $1400 per capita jump on the national average. In 2003 they are lagging $3000 behind. Meanwhile, Vancouver is one of the more expensive cost of living areas in Canada. Ouch!

No wonder my nephews can't find jobs. It doesn't appear as if there are many opportunities to be had.

Governments can affect things, but they can't work miracles. No government in BC could open the US border to free trade in lumber. None could dispel the malaise in Japan that has demand for pricier timber being low. Blaming the NDP for all the woes seems a tad simplistic. You can blame them for what they do badly, or do not do, but you can't blame them for everything. That is what God is for.

Likewise, the penchant for the left to scream and rant about Mulroney and the defecit, when international interest rates hit 24% on the already borrowed (by predecessors) billions has always seemed funny to me. It's like we expect to elect someone or another and they should have a magic wand they they will wave to make all our troubles go away. The older I get, the funnier it is to watch people chasing around and looking for the candidate who will usher in Camelot.

Last edited by notyoueither on 30-07-2004 at 10:04

	30-07-2004 09:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And BC underperform compared to the national average and compared to Eastern Canada. Yes, Campbell is on the wrong track.

They were coping with lumber trade problems. The prairies were coping with drought. They did better, even with Alberta's much vaunted oil and gas.

	30-07-2004 10:01									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Looking at the actual numbers shows the issue is more complex. http://www.statcan.ca/english/freep...ables/pdi01.htm Up until 1996, Alta, BC and Ont are fairly close in PDI/capita. Then something happens in 1997. PDI/capita in BC continues to grow throughoutthe NDP years, but is outpaced by Alta and Ont. BC wasn't going backwards, but rather incomes grew faster in Alta and Ont and that affected the national average. So what happened in Alta and Ont from 97 onwards? The Alta numbers really start shooting up during 1999-2001. Is the IT economy? Oil?

I'm not sure what's going on in Ontario. In Alberta the price of oil and gas is going up, but that doesn't dirtectly lead to individual purchasing power.

Calgary is going great guns through that period. Head offices are moving there. Start ups are abounding, and the city is beginning to outpace Edmonton in growth, seriously, from the mid 90's. By 2004, Calgary has more in common with New York City in some ways than the rest of Alberta. They have done an amazing job of developing and promoting their city. Evidence is when the buzzer to start a bull ride at the Calgary Stampede was used to open trading on Wall Street. That was pretty funny, and not something I ever imagined seeing.

Hi tech is growing in Edmonton, and likely in Calgary as well, but that takes time.

But look at BC, Quebec, and Nova Scotia. nevermind the factory czars and the oil barons.

BC, 1997 PDI 18,431, 2002 PDI 21,201. + 1800
Que, 1997 PDI 16,704, 2002 PDI 20,662. + 4000
NS, 1997 PDI 16,435, 2002 PDI 20,123. +3500

	30-07-2004 10:03									#109
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither per capita income in 1990 was $29,088 in fixed dollars. In 1998 it was $29,094. A $6 dollar increase with five years of decreases mixed in.

Per capita income for BC in 1991 was $25,262 in 1997 dollar terms. By 2000 (last year of NDP gov't), it was $25, 530. Since then it has declined to $25,113.

Note that these numbers take into account increases in the cost of living.

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/b...t/bcea/tab1.htm

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No wonder my nephews can't find jobs. It doesn't appear as if there are many opportunities to be had.

Unemployment declined during the NDP years from 10.2% in 1991 to 7.2% in 2000.

Under the Liberals, unemployment has risen to 8.1%

	30-07-2004 10:13									#110
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm not sure what's going on in Ontario. In Alberta the price of oil and gas is going up, but that doesn't dirtectly lead to individual purchasing power.

If the oil companies are making more money then they likely are paying their employees more. That could have a knock on effect for the entire Alta economy.

Any changes in Alta taxes (which would have a direct impact on PDI) during 1996-2000?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But look at BC, Quebec, and Nova Scotia. nevermind the factory czars and the oil barons. BC, 1997 PDI 18,431, 2002 PDI 21,201. + 1800 Que, 1997 PDI 16,704, 2002 PDI 20,662. + 4000 NS, 1997 PDI 16,435, 2002 PDI 20,123. +3500

Your numbers are off. BC increases by $2,770

NS increase likely due to oil. No idea about what is happening in Quebec.

	30-07-2004 10:15									#111
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Sorry, I said income when I meant GDP.

Income did too end 2000 at $25,530. The only year of the preceeding 8 that it was over $25K. From which it began to fall.

If you want credit for 2000 and blame the Liberals for 2003, don't you have to own up to 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, and 99? 4 years of negative growth, and 2 years of sub 1% with one good year (the last)?

Is the NDP to blame for it all? Are the Liberals? If you go strictly by those numbers and pin them on the government, the NDP deserved to be killed.

	30-07-2004 10:22									#112
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Four years of decline to start, then things start turning around and we get four years of increases.

	30-07-2004 10:23									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If the oil companies are making more money then they likely are paying their employees more. That could have a knock on effect for the entire Alta economy. Any changes in Alta taxes (which would have a direct impact on PDI) during 1996-2000? Your numbers are off. BC increases by $2,770 NS increase likely due to oil. No idea about what is happening in Quebec.

Heh. Many beer posting, and not being careful. Indeed, $2770 increase.

meanwhile, PEI with no oil is at a $3496 increase over the same period.

No matter how you cut it, BC has lagged. The issue is how much could any government have effected it.

re wages and the oil patch. No, not really. The oil patch has been non union and stayed that way by paying people good to start with, or at least that is the legend. More people employed in high paying jobs in the tar sands could have an effect. More people employed period in various businesses in a thriving Calgary has more to do with it though, I think.

The oil sands might add 200 jobs in a good year. Calgary is growing by 10,000 people in a bad year.

	30-07-2004 10:27									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Four years of decline to start, then things start turning around and we get four years of increases.

If you want to put a happy face on growth of 0.2 and 0.4 percent. The only decent year of growth is the last year at 3.4%.

	31-07-2004 01:57									#115
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quote: the implication being the author was of the community or spoke for the community.

Defensible given the allegation of racism.

	31-07-2004 01:59									#116
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And thanks to NYE for the posts above.

	31-07-2004 02:10									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Defensible given the allegation of racism.

Hardly.

Check your facts before making assertions:

David Schreck- sound East Indian or South Asian to you, even say a Cochin Jew?


Do guest writers habitually speak for an ethnic community or on behalf of an ethnic community to which they don't belong?

	31-07-2004 02:49									#118
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quote: David Schreck- sound East Indian or South Asian to you, even say a Cochin Jew? Do guest writers habitually speak for an ethnic community or on behalf of an ethnic community to which they don't belong?

I have many reasons for doubting Dosanjh as a health minister. None of you have come near to the mark of my motivations.

I dated a Sikh in high school, and I still see her from time to time in Vancouver. In many ways Sikhs are closer to Christianity as monotheists, than many other religions.

	31-07-2004 03:33									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have many reasons for doubting Dosanjh as a health minister. None of you have come near to the mark of my motivations. I dated a Sikh in high school, and I still see her from time to time in Vancouver. In many ways Sikhs are closer to Christianity as monotheists, than many other religions.

None of which is an answer.

Men can marry women and still be sexist you know.

Oh, and I grew up in a multi-ethnic inner city area, I know what Sikhs are like, thanks.

I've even been to a gurdwara.

	31-07-2004 03:41									#120
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quote: I've even been to a gurdwara.

Haven't had the pleasure of doing that myself.

quote: Men can marry women and still be sexist you know.

Yeah, but that's not my motivation with respect to Dosanjh. I don't like his policies with respect to abortion.

He could be white, and I would say the same thing if he were health minister.