27-07-2004 09:06									#121
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Any decision by the brain is the result of analysis, if just of immediate sensory perception. Duh!

	27-07-2004 09:11									#122
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Rational agent. Self interest. Hitting it.

	27-07-2004 09:11									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Any decision by the brain is the result of analysis, if just of immediate sensory perception. Duh!

I don't know why you believe that.

	27-07-2004 09:17									#124
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I think I discovered the disconnect here. The Right thinks that analysis is simply impulses to the brain. I'm afraid it's much more than that.

	27-07-2004 09:28									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's a completely meaningless statement. Impulses traveled to his brain, as opposed to stopping at some point midway and simply causing a reflexive action. His brain, his seat of conciousness, made a decision. The thought processes - however brief - that led to the decision are the analysis. Even if it was just "oh ****, that car's coming strait at me" and he jumps aside.

Do animals also have such a "thought process" or "analysis"?

	27-07-2004 09:30									#126
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Ok, I'll bite.

What constitutes an analysis, according to Kidicious?

	27-07-2004 09:32									#127
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Do animals also have such a "thought process" or "analysis"?

I would assume so... I mean, how else does your dog decide to chew on your shoes?

	27-07-2004 09:35									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: economists don't assume that people always behave rationally. They only say that we can expect people to generally behave rationally They say both. Economists do say that generally people behave rationally. But PA is also correct, economists, in creating their models and theories, assume that people always behave rationally. It's an assumption that must be made in order for any kind of model to be created. To say otherwise means you were snoring through your classes.

Any individual may behave in an unpredictable way. But the unpredictable actions of numerous individuals tend to cancel one another out, so the average behaviour of a group is rational.

	27-07-2004 09:38									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I would assume so... I mean, how else does your dog decide to chew on your shoes?

So the dog makes a cost/benefit analysis before doing everything?

	27-07-2004 09:44									#130
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As opposed to...?

	27-07-2004 09:49									#131
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I still would like an answer.

Which do you prefer out of these two scenarios?

(1) Your preference is satisified, but you believe it isn't.

or

(2) Your preference is not satisfied, but you believe it is.

If someone can reasonably hold that (1) is generally preferable to (2) then it cannot be the case that one's interests are selfish, since I forgo any benefit I would gain by knowing that my preference is satisfied in favour of its actual satisfaction.

	27-07-2004 09:51									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns As opposed to...?

Well, that's what I'm asking, and all I got so far is new questions

	27-07-2004 09:53									#133
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In the absence of any alternative, I would then have to say yes.

	27-07-2004 09:56									#134
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Then dogs make always rational decisions as we human do (always -as you think)?

	27-07-2004 10:05									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's a completely meaningless statement. Impulses traveled to his brain, as opposed to stopping at some point midway and simply causing a reflexive action. His brain, his seat of conciousness, made a decision. The thought processes - however brief - that led to the decision are the analysis. Even if it was just "oh ****, that car's coming strait at me" and he jumps aside.

Clearly, you have not been introduced to the concept of "reflexes."

	27-07-2004 10:06									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think I discovered the disconnect here. The Right thinks that analysis is simply impulses to the brain. I'm afraid it's much more than that.

	27-07-2004 10:48									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Ok, I'll bite. What constitutes an analysis, according to Kidicious?

You have to weigh different options. Impulses don't constitute that. Analyzing takes work and time. Sometimes you have no time, and sometimes you are too lazy. Other times you just get tired of being analytical.

	27-07-2004 10:57									#138
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quote: That's a pretty good answer.

And it was so obvious.

quote: I still would like an answer. Which do you prefer out of these two scenarios? (1) Your preference is satisified, but you believe it isn't. or (2) Your preference is not satisfied, but you believe it is. If someone can reasonably hold that (1) is generally preferable to (2) then it cannot be the case that one's interests are selfish, since I forgo any benefit I would gain by knowing that my preference is satisfied in favour of its actual satisfaction.

It isn't reasonable, people have the preference because of motivation and a/the motivation is the sense of accomplishment. Without the sense, who would prefer (1) and why would they opt for (1) when they don't even believe it will be fulfilled? That's like saying I'd "reasonably" give to a charity knowing the charity is run by a con man who will use my donation for personal gain. I wouldn't do it...

	27-07-2004 11:02									#139
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I think each side thinks of the "rational analysis" thingie differently.

Say, if i'm going in the street drunk and I buy a completely useless shiny toy for 10$ that I would've never bought if I were sober. I was drunk, and my brain was not working right and I decided to buy the toy.

The way I understand it, for PA, Kuciwalker and others that decision was rational. Because for me, at that specific moment the value of the toy was greater than the value of 10$. So I did the rational decision and went the road that brings me higher value.

But Azazel, Agathon and others think that a rational decision has to be impartial in some universal sense.

I chose what I thought to have higher value, therefore it was a rational decision. But my choice doesnt really have that perceived higher value and therefore it's an irrational decision.

So before bringing dogs into the discussion, agree on what you think a "rational cost-benefit analysis" is.

Last edited by Eli on 27-07-2004 at 11:09

	27-07-2004 11:05									#140
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Even a basic analysis is still an analysis. So what that sometimes a basic analyis leads you to conclude that the marginal cost of more analysis outweighs the likely marginal benefit of more analysis? The rational person makes the best decision they can under the current circumstances. This includes making a simple cost-benefit analysis of something trivial such as the decision to post on the forum vs spending my time doing something else, or making a decision under time-pressure.

	27-07-2004 11:08									#141
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quote: You have to weigh different options. Impulses don't constitute that. Analyzing takes work and time. Sometimes you have no time, and sometimes you are too lazy. Other times you just get tired of being analytical.

People typically analyse situations before they arise. Haven't you ever thought about what you'd do if you saw someone in trouble and helping them may result in your death? The question becomes: if you would risk your life based on prior analysis will the impulse for self-preservation over ride that analysis? Even the guy who risks his life helping someone has a moment of reflection, "I might die doing this". Analysis need not be thorough or accurate and can happen in a split second... Consider driving along and seeing the need to swerve to avoid a car...

	27-07-2004 11:11									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns This includes making a simple cost-benefit analysis of something trivial such as the decision to post on the forum vs spending my time doing something else, or making a decision under time-pressure.

I don't even do this half the time. I have an impulse to do something and I do it. I don't sit there and think of all the alternative things I could be doing. After I get bored then I try to think of something else to do.

	27-07-2004 11:14									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker People typically analyse situations before they arise. Haven't you ever thought about what you'd do if you saw someone in trouble and helping them may result in your death? The question becomes: if you would risk your life based on prior analysis will the impulse for self-preservation over ride that analysis? Even the guy who risks his life helping someone has a moment of reflection, "I might die doing this". Analysis need not be thorough or accurate and can happen in a split second... Consider driving along and seeing the need to swerve to avoid a car...

Yes I have thought about what I would do in an emergency. That doesn't mean that is what I will do. A lot of people think they will risk their live to save someone, but when the time comes they are too scared. Fear is not rational, or are you going to say that it is.

	27-07-2004 11:16									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Ok, I'll bite. What constitutes an analysis, according to Kidicious?

	27-07-2004 11:43									#145
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quote: Yes I have thought about what I would do in an emergency. That doesn't mean that is what I will do. A lot of people think they will risk their live to save someone, but when the time comes they are too scared. Fear is not rational, or are you going to say that it is.

But that means the analysis was done before the situation arised, it doesn't matter if your impulse for self-preservation over rides your analysis. Your impulse itself was an analysis: "I don't want to die". Competing analyses that lead to confusion are still analyses...

	27-07-2004 11:48									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But that means the analysis was done before the situation arised, it doesn't matter if your impulse for self-preservation over rides your analysis. Your impulse itself was an analysis: "I don't want to die". Competing analyses that lead to confusion are still analyses...

Ok, but the decision wasn't rational.

	27-07-2004 12:13									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Ok, I'll bite. What constitutes an analysis, according to Kidicious?

	27-07-2004 12:15									#148
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You can stop that. I already answered that.

	27-07-2004 12:18									#149
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I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered trawling the thread for it. Copy your definition here.

	27-07-2004 12:27									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered trawling the thread for it. Copy your definition here.

You think I can be arsed into trawling the thread for you?