30-07-2004 01:05									#241
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Arrian No one is really clear on what you do propose, other than that rich people are bad and lazy and don't deserve their money. -Arrian

No people with specific characteristics are bad. Those characteristics create their bias though, with the rare exception of those who are capable of seeing their own bias and willing to think outside of it.

	30-07-2004 01:05									#242
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, they'll be *****ing about the fact that they can't afford a decent place to live while working two jobs and can't afford to have someone look after the kids . . . OMFG, that sounds just like today. :rolleye:

I take it you haven't seen Kidicious' posts.

	30-07-2004 01:06									#243
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It doesn't require a book, or at least shouldn't. COST OF LIVING, people! Damn.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:08									#244
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No people with specific characteristics are bad. Those characteristics create their bias though, with the rare exception of those who are capable of seeing their own bias and willing to think outside of it.

Whatever, Kid. I was there for the capitalist/communist threads. I remember your posts about rich people. Come on now, you know what you said... repeatedly and at length.

Anyways, I really don't want to rehash that now.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:08									#245
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Arrian, there are lots of things that shouldn't be, yet are. Take Republicans for example.

	30-07-2004 01:11									#246
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Whatever, Kid. I was there for the capitalist/communist threads. I remember your posts about rich people. Come on now, you know what you said... repeatedly and at length. Anyways, I really don't want to rehash that now. -Arrian

I don't make generalizations about people. If you have proof present it (in context please).

	30-07-2004 01:14									#247
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Mmm, yeah. And Commies.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:15									#248
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I take it you haven't seen Kidicious' posts.

I may have skipped a few pages.

	30-07-2004 01:15									#249
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't make generalizations about people. If you have proof present it (in context please).

Oh COME ON! You are going to pretend that you didn't make sweeping generalizations about rich people?

It would almost be worth it to search for the old threads and quote you. Almost. But not quite. I'm leaving now to go take my dog to training class (he needs it, ok, he's a rescue and his former owner didn't do **** with him, which is of course one of the reasons I now have him). Maybe tomorrow if this thread is still active.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:18									#250
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Oh COME ON! You are going to pretend that you didn't make sweeping generalizations about rich people? It would almost be worth it to search for the old threads and quote you. Almost. But not quite. I'm leaving now to go take my dog to training class (he needs it, ok, he's a rescue and his former owner didn't do **** with him, which is of course one of the reasons I now have him). Maybe tomorrow if this thread is still active. -Arrian

You misunderstood me. Why won't you accept what I'm telling you now, that I'm not classist against rich people?

	30-07-2004 01:19									#251
	Suffering from ads?

Ok, fine. You're not classist against rich people.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:20									#252
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Ok, fine. You're not classist against rich people. -Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:21									#253
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There's nothing wrong with being prejudiced against the rulers of society. I'm sure their little feelings are so hurt by us nobodies while they plot their schemes of world domination.

	30-07-2004 02:15									#254
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ming I already pay big taxes... which I have no choice. But I also give time and money to charities that fund programs that help people help themselves. Many people need help, and are willing to work hard. I want to help those people. I have very little interest in helping people who have no interest in helping themselves, and are lazy, and are just looking for a free ride. If you want a socialist society... fine... I don't... I don't really see why the lazy should leach off the hard working.

But the lazy leaching off the hard working is exactly what wealth inheritance is all about! Not one of the recipients of large inheritances that I know works hard anymore. They are pissing away their families legacy on easy non productive living.

For those who want to actually maintain a legacy even the current tax laws make excemptions so that an entire family business can be transfered upon death of the owner to an inheritor with no estate tax involved.

It is truly bizarre watching you state exactly the values that cause me to accept the estate tax as a healthy thing and then state that you are opposed to it. Do you really care about lazy leaching off the hard working or not?

	30-07-2004 02:26									#255
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: But the lazy leaching off the hard working is exactly what wealth inheritance is all about! Not one of the recipients of large inheritances that I know works hard anymore.

Isn't that better than some old geezer toiling away at something they love to do and getting paid well for it but has no time to actually spend the money?

Most of the rich are hard workers because they love what they do and are good at it. Most of these ppl are not doing what they are doing to make money so they can retire... Most never do.

Dems are always arguing that if you give the money to the lower classes than they are more likely to spend it, putting the money where it belongs back in the system. They do, however, fail to mention that the rich do not keep their money in a vault in the backyard under a rock... Still, you complain about ppl inheriting money and than just spending it. Sounds like jealousy to me, or even worse; greed.

Regardless, I am always against double or even triple taxation. Saying that someones heirs needs to be taxed because money (that has already been taxed 100 times over) is being given to them is, IMO, silly. It is that persons money and they can do what they want with it, and it shouldn't be a outlet for the government to stick their little greedy hands in once again.

I think it's all about supply and demand. Ppl would be more willing to buy certain things if they didn't cost so much. Reduce sales taxes instead of income taxes, and tax the money only at it's source, and let people do what they want with it.

	30-07-2004 02:31									#256
	Support Apolyton

Japher please explain why and how it matters how many times my money is taxed.

	30-07-2004 02:41									#257
	Got spare money?

hmmm so we should tax people becoause we don't like how they spend their money and because some rich folks get lazy??

To the death tax proponents . .. just curious why you propose a huge tax grab when someone dies and not a true annual wealth tax where you can nibble and nibble and nibble. After all if accumulation of wealth is so horrible,I'm suprised you are willing to wait until someone dies to go after it.

For me its simple-- I can live with the idea of income taxes as a necessary evil-- but once I have my post-tax income, its mine dogonnit .. . mine, mine, mine and I'll give it to whom I choose and when I choose-- it will be my wife and child but its mine to deal with and dispose of and the governemnet should keep their all too grasping hands to themselves

	30-07-2004 02:46									#258
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Having several smaller taxes is, imho, a better system than one large tax. If you place the tax revenue onus on one method it is easier to circumvent. Also it is less likely to cause economic problems.

If you only had a sales tax, you will see an increased amount of smuggling and blackmarketing.

If you only have an income tax, people will leave the area to work where taxes are not as high.

If you only have corporation tax, fewer companies will choose to set-up or invest in the area.

	30-07-2004 02:52									#259
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Flubber hmmm so we should tax people becoause we don't like how they spend their money and because some rich folks get lazy?? To the death tax proponents . .. just curious why you propose a huge tax grab when someone dies and not a true annual wealth tax where you can nibble and nibble and nibble. After all if accumulation of wealth is so horrible,I'm suprised you are willing to wait until someone dies to go after it. For me its simple-- I can live with the idea of income taxes as a necessary evil-- but once I have my post-tax income, its mine dogonnit .. . mine, mine, mine and I'll give it to whom I choose and when I choose-- it will be my wife and child but its mine to deal with and dispose of and the governemnet should keep their all too grasping hands to themselves

I'm a Death tax proponent so I can provide some answers to your questions.

First I like accumulation of personal wealth it's what keeps the wheels of the economy going at all income levels.

Second I hate taxes. Necessary evil at best. The less in total I spend on taxes the happier I am and the healthier the overall economic system is (assuming it reigns in government spending as well)

As a result of 1 and 2 I loathe the idea of the government nibbling away at my income all throughout my life.

	30-07-2004 02:56									#260
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I'm a Death tax proponent so I can provide some answers to your questions. First I like accumulation of personal wealth it's what keeps the wheels of the economy going at all income levels. Second I hate taxes. Necessary evil at best. The less in total I spend on taxes the happier I am and the healthier the overall economic system is (assuming it reigns in government spending as well) As a result of 1 and 2 I loathe the idea of the government nibbling away at my income all throughout my life.

So would you tax my "gifts" to my child during my lifetime as well?? perhaps I want to pay off his college loan or help him get his first house.

If you tax that, aren't you doing the nibbling you "loathe" and if you don't , aren't you making it really easy to avoid the tax you want to impose?

	30-07-2004 02:58									#261
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber To the death tax proponents . .. just curious why you propose a huge tax grab when someone dies and not a true annual wealth tax where you can nibble and nibble and nibble. After all if accumulation of wealth is so horrible,I'm suprised you are willing to wait until someone dies to go after it.

Simple- we are taxing an estate, NOT a person0the person being dead. So what the government is taxing is the gaining of new income or property by the inheritors, who after all, did nothing to get it but being born (we tax lottery recepits as well), and since the person who earned it is dead and hence no longer an issue, who cares?

quote: For me its simple-- I can live with the idea of income taxes as a necessary evil-- but once I have my post-tax income, its mine dogonnit .. . mine, mine, mine and I'll give it to whom I choose and when I choose-- it will be my wife and child but its mine to deal with and dispose of and the governemnet should keep their all too grasping hands to themselves

Sorry, but we tax gifts, and that is what passing an estate to someone else is, a giant Gift. Besides, your abilityt o elgally pass it along to anyone is there thanks to the State. So they get the ability to take a chunk of it. After all, when you die your rights have come to an end.

	30-07-2004 03:00									#262
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Flubber So would you tax my "gifts" to my child during my lifetime as well?? perhaps I want to pay off his college loan or help him get his first house.

We are taxing someone elses income. If you want to make sure they get more, figure in the taxes and give more. Besides, both things you mentioned are not taxed as gifts.

	30-07-2004 03:05									#263
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok Gepap I give up, I will finally (try) to stop calling the estate tax a "death tax". It feels like I'm using a cute euphamism though

	30-07-2004 03:07									#264
	Remove this text

It's hard to tax somebody when they're dead, as they cannot own property.

EDIT: GODDAMNIT, I hate typing in "their" when they're is what I meant.

Last edited by KrazyHorse on 30-07-2004 at 03:31

	30-07-2004 03:11									#265
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Exactly, which is why the tax is on the ESTATE of X, which is a legal creation. You know, just like the Estate of Elvis can still sue you even if he is long dead (or so they say.... )

	30-07-2004 03:30									#266
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GePap Exactly, which is why the tax is on the ESTATE of X, which is a legal creation. You know, just like the Estate of Elvis can still sue you even if he is long dead (or so they say.... )

Gepap I suppose I might agree with that logic because it supports my argument in this case. But in the big picture It seems to me that this logic could extend to an awfully large spectrum of potential tax victims.

For instance the networks and radio stations are essentially legal creations. The radio bandwidth they control is essentially public domain that the government regulates in such a way as to allow the private secotr to put to profitable use. The logic you used above would seem to risk justifying free government access to such bandwidth at will! imagine the awful increase in political ads we might experience if this logic were to gain wide acceptance.

A second example might be patent and copyright law. Again the government could use such logic to justify piracy of software for it's own use with the logic that exclusive intellectual property rights also exist only because of the government.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with singling out an estate in a special way simply because it is an artifical legal construction.

	30-07-2004 03:37									#267
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's hard to tax somebody when they're dead, as they cannot own property. EDIT: GODDAMNIT, I hate typing in "their" when they're is what I meant.

You'd think, but its amusing that many dead persons still needs to complete an income tax return as they were alive part way through the tax year.

I've had to send letters to dead people informing them of their dividend tax credits before now.

	30-07-2004 03:42									#269
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Properly, though, in terms of income tax the government is a creditor of the estate as the person owed the taxes while alive. Just like the estate owes the phone company for any unpaid bills etc.

	30-07-2004 03:48									#270
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo For instance the networks and radio stations are essentially legal creations. The radio bandwidth they control is essentially public domain that the government regulates in such a way as to allow the private secotr to put to profitable use. The logic you used above would seem to risk justifying free government access to such bandwidth at will! imagine the awful increase in political ads we might experience if this logic were to gain wide acceptance.

Hmm, hello: The public OWNES the airwaves, and networks lease it from the state. The state can and does demand conditions from the networks for their use of the public's bandwith. In fact, news shows on the networks exist becuase the government mandated them. So, in fact, the government, when it renews the leases of networks, can ask whatever it wants from them. Cable is different from simply broadcast, which is why you can have cable stations with no form of public info on them.

quote: A second example might be patent and copyright law. Again the government could use such logic to justify piracy of software for it's own use with the logic that exclusive intellectual property rights also exist only because of the government.

Correct again- you see, the government sets the length of a patent, and after the patent is up, anyone can use or make the thing or idea. So yes, intellectual property rights do exist only becuase of the government, and if the government wanted to revoke all patents, it could.

quote: I'm not sure I'm comfortable with singling out an estate in a special way simply because it is an artifical legal construction.

The State enforces the law-there are no such things as natural rights of man.