29-07-2004 13:22									#181
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quote: Originally posted by atomant In regard to death tax, I agree with Ming, why should I or my estate have to pay tax twice on money I have earned.

Since the recipient of your inheritance did not earn it, so the tax is on him getting the money, not on you.

	29-07-2004 13:23									#182
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP DanS me? What does that mean?

N00b

	29-07-2004 13:34									#183
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--"You forgot, poverty is relative."

In extreme, if everyone is making 100k per year and you are making 90k, you are poor?

	29-07-2004 13:37									#184
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Yes.

Your income would be below average, below median, and below the mode.

	29-07-2004 13:38									#185
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own goal

	29-07-2004 13:43									#186
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quote: Originally posted by atomant If that makes me a miser, or a scrooge, so be it. One thing people often forget is that wealthy people employ others to work for them, thereby creating employment and injecting further money into the economy for the purchase of goods and services. Are we saying we wish to tax until death (and beyond) those people who allow the rest of us to enjoy a life?

Well that is not what i'm saying. I'm saying reduce earnings taxes by replacing as much of the money as possible dollar for dollar with income from the death tax instead. In the US there is discussion of eliminating the death tax completely which makes no sense since the shortfall will obviously generate a need for the government to steal even more from my paycheck. no thanks.

	29-07-2004 14:32									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Saras own goal

You wish.

	29-07-2004 14:42									#188
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ok, most of the opposition to the death tax that I'm seeing in this thread appears to be rooted in profoundly admirable values. People hate it because they love their families and want to protect them from all economic inconveniences. Loving our families is a very good thing. However what nobody appears to be recognizing is that income taxes hurt our families every bit as much! Why oh why do people reason that their families perfer losing a dollar from their paychecks over a dollar from their inheritance? EVERY FRICKEN PENNY of taxation that is removed when death tax is removed must be made up through other taxes! *ALL* of which hurt our families!

People talk about being taxed twice. What the hell has that got to do with anything? Does everybody here buy everything in cash? Do people here wish that there were no payment plans because, damn it sure sucks to pay for that car 36 times! I only wanted to pay once! It's not the number of times we are taxed that sucks, it is the total amount which we are taxed!

Here is another thought experiment. Suppose you need to buy something from me. I tell you I won't charge any interest and ask you if you would like to pay in advance, pay now, or pay it in the indefinate future? Why would it not be in your best interest and in the best interest of everybody who depends on you economically to choose the option to pay it some time in the indefinate future?

Here's another thought. When do you most need your money
A: when you are young and educating yourself and establishing savings for buying your first house.

B: when you are raising your children, providing for their basic needs and saving for their education.

C: when you are so old that you have finally sucumbed to your mortality, your children are providing for themselves and you have not seen fit to pass your accumulated wealth onto them.

It amazes me that so many here apparently choose C: as the time when they most need their money because they loathe the thought of defering some of their taxes to that time.


The arguments stated for going an all income tax route for paying the government bills with no estate tax whatsoever just do not add up! They most certainly are not advocating the best taxation option for our families! Therefore I feel compelled to post what I think might be the real incentive for opposition to the death tax even though I do not like it and even though it may (hopefully) turn out to be just a pessimistic strawman.

I suspect that as we live our lives painstakingly building an estate for ourselves, in the back of our minds we are keenly aware of our own mortality and the futility of the all consuming effort to aquire a large stockpile of material things which ultimately we cannot hope to take with us. We deal with this by unconsciously accepting that it is not futile at all because when we die our children will make use of this stockpile to better their lives and this constant handing down of wealth initiated by oneself will ensure an immortal legacy for the fruit of all our toil and care.

Well this is an irrational motivation! Remember we are not saving a dime of our hard earned money from the IRS by reverting to a pure income tax no death tax system of taxation! The IRS takes as much money in total either way! The healthy way to deal with our mortality and a desire to leave a legacy for the future is not to set up an apparatus that dumps our material goods on our children when we croak but rather to invest in their well being while we are still alive. Think of when your money is most likely to make a difference to your families well being. Is it when you are old or when they are just starting to get on their own financial feet?

I wish more people would recognize the wisdom of Andrew Carnegie's notion expressed in his essay "The Gospel of Wealth," that it was a disgrace for a man to die rich.

	29-07-2004 16:49									#189
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quote: Originally posted by atomant Come to africa, were people earn less than a dollar US per day. That is poverty. There was a picture on the front page of teh national newspaper of a guy skinning mice for his evening meal.

What part of Africa are you living in? Sure, poverity sucks put the African governments could greatly improve the quality of life for their people if they 1) dealt harshly with corruption 2) lowered trade barriers so that African states bought more goods amoungst each other 3) Protected private properity so that investors felt they could safely invest in businesses which create jobs 4) Spent less then they made so that the remainder could be invested in better public infastructure.

South Africa and Guinea have done some of this but I can't think of another African state that's even tried.

	29-07-2004 16:51									#190
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse What? I'm no longer talking about sales tax; I'm talking about THE INCOME TAX I PAYED ON THE 15000 PRIOR TO PURCHASING THE CAR

You still haven't told me how you are valuing the assets.

	29-07-2004 16:52									#191
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As usual... most of the pro death tax people are making the assumption that everybody lives to a nice old age... and that even as we get older, our kids no longer need us... It very well could be that the money you leave your kids comes right at the time they need to put their children through college... or that their children are starting out in life, and their parents can't help them because they have just finished putting them through college... A family consists of more than just your kids.
The family continues beyond them to their children as well.

Tax my income... that I can plan for... I can budget... I can make the proper investment strategies... Death, I really can't plan for... that could be in many years, or the next day... If it comes at the wrong time, my family will be screwed because of bad timing.

	29-07-2004 16:55									#192
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse BC: Why is it that if I inherit 15000$ and buy a car with it then I should be taxed on the 15000$ as earned income, whereas if I inherit the same car I am not taxed at all (assuming I use it for personal reasons until it is junk).

Tax systems always make different methods of acquisition beneficial. If you had been gifted the car before death, or had it sold to you for a low rate that barely avoids gift status, then you would have paid less tax than the fair market value at which you were deemed to receive it at.

Also, suppose the person who gave you the car had given it to you to use before death, that is, before selling it or gifting it. Should you be taxed from the moment you started using it and hence devalued it, or from the moment it officially became yours?

Inheriting cash is more beneficial as it has numerous to unlimited uses and is a liquid asset. Inheriting a car leaves you with a limited option. In that sense there is a justification for the former to be taxed more as there is more generic benefit and a demonstrable ability to pay.


Edit - grammar.

	29-07-2004 17:10									#193
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Ming: A trust fund would handle this and I believe life insurance given to minor children isn't treated as part of an estate so those kids can be well looked after.

I see our country as being a meritocracy where people can rise based upon hard work and good decisions. Having a entitled upper class is contrary to the ideals of a meritocracy. In general taking a healthy slice of the largest people's estates to pay for worth while social programs mean society as a whole gets better and it prevents the wealthest from forming a perminent upper class. They'd still get a very healthy start in life but in order to reach the highest rung of the latter they'd still have to take risks and perform like the rest of us. Since we're only talking about 2% of the population this doesn't seem like a huge burden upon society and the people who accumulate wealth will still get to enjoy it for their lifetime.

	29-07-2004 17:24									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The death tax is double taxiation... period. They have already taken their fair share. It's that simple.

For that matter so is capital gains (at least on dividends)as the corporations have paid (ususally) 36% corporate income tax on their profits.

	29-07-2004 17:25									#195
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I guess I just don't believe in your socialistic attitudes.
And fortunately, I don't live in a socialist country. I work hard for my family... and I have a real problem watching my family suffer just so my money can be handed over to lazy people who think it's their right to continue to be lazy.

And I love the ole... it's only 2% of society, so let's screw them attitude... They have rights too.

And I don't work hard just so I can enjoy my wealth... I work hard so that my children and their children will be better off... For some of us I, our children are the most important things in this world. Some might even argue that children are all that really matter in our short lives... So I season no reason why I should screw them just to help others.

I already pay big taxes... which I have no choice.
But I also give time and money to charities that fund programs that help people help themselves. Many people need help, and are willing to work hard. I want to help those people. I have very little interest in helping people who have no interest in helping themselves, and are lazy, and are just looking for a free ride.

If you want a socialist society... fine... I don't... I don't really see why the lazy should leach off the hard working.

	29-07-2004 17:26									#196
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quote: It's hard to make a straight up comparison because you don't know what loopholes have been eliminated since.

Bingo! Over time more and more write-offs have been eliminated. The ~%90 of the 50's had all sorts of allowances, write-offs, etc... Repubs like to claim Reagan cut taxes from Carter's ~70 to ~28, but they ignore that not only were we hit with a bunch of other taxes, the closing of "loopholes" escalated during the 80's.

quote: Like anything else, money DOES have diminishing marginal utility. A guy who's got a 3 million a year salary doesn't miss twenty bucks like you or I do if it comes up missing, and no matter how talented the individual, the guy with the three mil salary owes at least part of that affluence to the system in place that supports and celebrates the use of his skills....making his salary possible. So yeah, when I'm in that boat, I'll pony up and smile all the way to the bank.

You mean that guy owes you because you "support and celebrate" his skill to make alot of money? This line of reasoning is flawed, that guy can use that $20 to invest or consume and create more wealth, produce jobs, etc... Your argument is that politicians produce jobs and real wealth more efficiently than businesses, investors and consumers. Or that politicians know better how to "invest" in what does create jobs and real wealth than the actual owners of that money. Ain't true, no one or no relatively small group of people have the knowledge to match Adam Smith's "invisible hand". A complex economy like ours runs by millions of decisions consumers and producers make every day. I'm no economist but I do understand that "command" economies suffer from a lack of knowledge...

	29-07-2004 17:28									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe For that matter so is capital gains (at least on dividends)as the corporations have paid (ususally) 36% corporate income tax on their profits.

Capital gains are viewed as additional revenue to an individual. If I invest money, and make a profit, I expect to be taxed on that profit. I have no problem with capital gains taxes...

	29-07-2004 17:37									#198
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Example of liberalism at work:

About a decade ago liberal politicians decided to "tax the rich". They dramatically increased the "luxury" tax, including yachts. The result? The yacht building industry, you know, the non-rich, in the NE was devastated as rich people either stopped buying yachts or bought them elsewhere. So then we were treated to the spectacle of liberal politicians from the NE asking for exemptions for their states from the tax they supported.

Another example:

The Sierra Club of California lobbied for an increase in the state's minimum wage (why an environmental group was doing that is another matter). But then the Sierra Club "discovered" they would have to lay people off if they had to pay the increased wages. So they lobbied for an exemption from the increase they lobbied for.

******* hypocrites!

They didn't care if businesses had to lay off people, screw the people who work for them... Then we hear from liberals that increasing the minimum wage doesn't destroy jobs Explain that to the Sierra Club!

	29-07-2004 17:43									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Capital gains are viewed as additional revenue to an individual. If I invest money, and make a profit, I expect to be taxed on that profit. I have no problem with capital gains taxes...

I take it you see inheritors of an estate as being party of a 'single' entity with the person who gave them the inheritance? That is, if you inherit an asset you are in effect making a capital gain that is offset by the capital loss incurred by the deceased.

On reflection that makes a far more equitable method of assessing tax due for later capital gains than assuming zero cost to the inheritor.

	29-07-2004 18:14									#200
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As someone who would be effected by the inheritance (death) tax (since my parents assets will easily exceed $600k), I come down on the side of those who support it, although I'm not sure I'm entirely pleased with the current implementation.

I do think that it would make sense to allow extra time to pay the tax, so you don't end up in a situation where you inherit non-liquid assets and have a huge tax bill to pay, and are in the position of scrambling to raise the cash. That would suck. If my parents died tomorrow, YIKES The house alone is worth $600K. The rest of their money is tied up in 401(k)s, IRAs, and I think some stock. In terms of actual cash in the bank accounts, there isn't much. Hell, a few months ago my mom borrowed a couple of hundred bucks from me to cover a bill because they were cutting the cashflow real close. I'm not sure how easy it would be to liquify the 401(k)/IRA accounts. If it isn't a big deal, then I'd be fine. If it takes a while, I'd be screwed. Or rather my brother would be, since I think he'd be executor. Bah, this is depressing.

Perhaps it should be based on how much you receive, not the value of the total estate. Of course, I'd then lower the trigger amount from $600k. Call it $250-$300 per inheritor. After that, tax 'em.

At the end of the day, this is all arbitrary. As are the definitions of wealth and poverty. To some, I'm wealthy. To others, I'm middle class. I don't think anyone would call me poor, but there are a lot of idiots in this world...

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 18:17									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I take it you see inheritors of an estate as being party of a 'single' entity with the person who gave them the inheritance?

Yes... I call it a family

	29-07-2004 18:28									#202
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Arrian, if you think the death tax would give you a headache, think of all the family businesses/farms that are ruined or put in jeopardy by not having the ready cash to pay the tax because it's invested.

This is money that was already taxed and these left wingers want another cut. Double taxation, triple taxation, it's never enough... and then they have the audacity to accuse the people they are ripping off of being selfish for not enjoying the experience of hosting parasites because liberals are "entitled" to their money...

	29-07-2004 18:35									#203
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Is there no exemption (or higher limit) for business assets? If so, that's a flaw.

Since I'm quite to the left of you, Berz, I am probably a "liberal" in your estimation. It's pretty easy to be left of a libertarian, though. Hell, I voted Lib in '96. That being said, I've shifted left a bit. I used to think the flat tax was a great idea. Maybe in a vaccuum it is. But there are lots of other taxes out there (property/fire/car/etc), and coupled with the diminishing usefulness of income, that makes a flat income tax regressive in reality. And, even if it's not perfectly "fair" or "moral" consider that you can consider the "extra" tax paid by the very rich as a bribe of sorts to the rest of us, to prevent the type of strife that was common in the dark days of the industrial revolution. Don't like it? It's a cost of doing business, so to speak.

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 18:38									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yes... I call it a family

The corporation where I work is one big happy family.

	29-07-2004 18:45									#205
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I don't really care to read the entire thread but could someone explain to me why anyone should pay 90% of thier income to the government as MRT wants?

	29-07-2004 18:46									#206
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quote: Is there no exemption (or higher limit) for business assets? If so, that's a flaw.

There are attempts to alter the laws to protect businesses and farms but I'm not sure if they've been passed yet.

quote: And, even if it's not perfectly "fair" or "moral" consider that you can consider the "extra" tax paid by the very rich as a bribe of sorts to the rest of us, to prevent the type of strife that was common in the dark days of the industrial revolution.

Sounds like, "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"
If I walked up to you and demanded half your money in exchange for not taking everything you have, would that be moral? I don't want to extort money from the rich, but I'm not given that moral option because my taxes are used to pay the people enforcing the extortion.

	29-07-2004 18:51									#207
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quote: I don't really care to read the entire thread but could someone explain to me why anyone should pay 90% of thier income to the government as MRT wants?

Because MRT is entitled to it, you see, liberals have the moral authority to steal from others by virtue of their ideology.

"We legalised robbery...called it belief" - Mark Knopfler, Dire Straits

	29-07-2004 18:52									#208
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really care to read the entire thread but could someone explain to me why anyone should pay 90% of thier income to the government as MRT wants?

Synopsis:

They shouldn't and never have.

	29-07-2004 18:52									#209
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We can argue the morality of tax law until we're both blue in the face. Suffice it to say that I don't have a problem with the progressive tax system in this country. There is a part of me that is libertarian, and is therefore drawn to the simplicity of your position. It's cut 'n dried, and oh-so-moral. But, just like communism, it is something that can be made to look pretty on paper, but would fail spectacularly in real life.

Frankly, I think it would be cool if the Libs got themselves a state and set up their ideal society as an experiment. Right next door to the Commies. Hows about New Hampshire (Libs) and Vermont (Commies)? Wait, no, scratch that, I like those states and I like to go skiing there. Montana & Wyoming?

...

Seriously: I'm not really in the mood to debate the morality of taxation, communism vs. capitalism, libertarianism vs. liberalism.

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 18:54									#210
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First,

ESTATE Tax, NOT death tax, NOR inheritance tax. It is a tax on a type of estate.

Second, I seriously doubt you fit into the category Arrian that would pay the tax- I do not think transfering a house fits into that tax scheme.

Here is a link to a pro-estate tax group essentially:
http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/2128/1/212/