29-07-2004 18:54									#211
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't really care to read the entire thread but could someone explain to me why anyone should pay 90% of thier income to the government as MRT wants?

The 90% figure is a "marginal tax rate"... they don't truely pay 90% of their income to taxes. If you view it under a graduated tax scale, they pay a far lower percentage on their income up to a certain level... a higher rate on dollars earned above that level... until finally, the last amount of dollars earned are taxed at 90%. The actual "average" tax rate they may pay could be as low as 40%.

	29-07-2004 19:00									#212
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Hmm, checked your link, GePap. I don't get it. I thought the threashold was 600K. Yet I plug in $1.5 million, married, and get no estate tax.

First off, whose marital status are we talking about here? The person who dies, or the person inheriting? If the latter, what about the fact that most estates are split up amongst several inheritors?

-Arrian, now confused.

	29-07-2004 19:03									#213
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The limit is moving upward. I think it is now at 1.5 Mil or very soon willl be. We just went through this as we set up our will with the lawyers.

	29-07-2004 19:05									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You wish.

So, how much of the US population live below the GLOBAL income average, median AND mode

	29-07-2004 19:07									#215
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Sara your definition is too narrow.

For the PETA freaks who think animals deserve every right of humans you need consider the GLOBAL income average, median and mode including dogs,cats, horse, pigs, etc.

	29-07-2004 19:29									#216
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Sorry, I feel such an insensitive piece of crap

	29-07-2004 19:34									#217
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quote: Frankly, I think it would be cool if the Libs got themselves a state and set up their ideal society as an experiment. Right next door to the Commies. Hows about New Hampshire (Libs) and Vermont (Commies)? Wait, no, scratch that, I like those states and I like to go skiing there. Montana & Wyoming?

If libertarians were running New Hampashire, you could still ski there But if you want to ski in Vermont you'll just have to pay all the taxes they'll tack on unless they decide skiing is bad for the environment.

	29-07-2004 19:35									#218
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quote: Originally posted by atomant Come to africa, were people earn less than a dollar US per day. That is poverty. There was a picture on the front page of teh national newspaper of a guy skinning mice for his evening meal.

Exactly my point. THAT is poverty. Making $40,000 a year and driving a new car is NOT poverty or anywhere close.


And yes poverty is relative, but I live in a rather expensive area of a rather expensive country and make a fourth as much as Mr. 40k and I wouldn't describe myself as living in poverty.

	29-07-2004 19:37									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If libertarians were running New Hampashire, you could still ski there

I bet your skies would be nicked if you stepped into the bathroom for just one minute, though.

	29-07-2004 19:38									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If libertarians were running New Hampashire, you could still ski there But if you want to ski in Vermont you'll just have to pay all the taxes they'll tack on unless they decide skiing is bad for the environment.

That assumes that NH will be a functioning society, as opposed to one experiencing systemic breakdown, as I suspect it might.

In VT, the ski resorts wouldn't last a year.

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 19:50									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Hmm, checked your link, GePap. I don't get it. I thought the threashold was 600K. Yet I plug in $1.5 million, married, and get no estate tax. First off, whose marital status are we talking about here? The person who dies, or the person inheriting? If the latter, what about the fact that most estates are split up amongst several inheritors? -Arrian, now confused.

I believe its the person whose estate it is, ergo the ones who might die.

	29-07-2004 23:01									#222
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quote: That assumes that NH will be a functioning society, as opposed to one experiencing systemic breakdown, as I suspect it might.

Well, if the Free State Project kicks off, we'll get to see firsthand instead of just talking about it.

	29-07-2004 23:01									#223
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There is property in my family. I've seen it affect people in different ways. My paternal grandfather was a salesman, and earned enough money to start his own company. That company did very well since my grandfather was a very good salesman and business man. However, as my paternal grandfather accumulated assets he worked less and less since more and more of his income came from his assets.

The other side of my family has owned property from as far back as we know of. My maternal grandfather inhereted a sizable amount of property. However, he educated his self (hated farming) and earned quite a bit of money himself. He also saved a lot compared to the amount that he had. Unfortunately, his children have not done a damn thing with their lives. They are all rich bums.

People should have to work for their money. It's better for them.

	29-07-2004 23:02									#224
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quote: People should have to work for their money. It's better for them.

Hmm, I suppose you see my point about welfare now.

	29-07-2004 23:05									#225
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmm, I suppose you see my point about welfare now.

I'm against welfare as long as there is an alternative.

	29-07-2004 23:07									#226
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quote: I'm against welfare as long as there is an alternative.

Alternative, as in a nice inheritance check at the right time, maybe?

	29-07-2004 23:16									#227
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, if the Free State Project kicks off, we'll get to see firsthand instead of just talking about it.

Like I said, I honestly would like to see both the Libs and the Commies fire up test case projects (hopefully w/o too much malicious intereference from outside) so the rest of us can observe (and probably laugh quite a bit). Hell, we might even learn something useful.

-Arrian

	29-07-2004 23:19									#228
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Commies had thier shot (Russia & China). It's about time Libs got thier turn.

	29-07-2004 23:23									#229
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Commies had thier shot (Russia & China). It's about time Libs got thier turn.

Yes, but only Leninists, Stalinists and Maoists had their chance. regular Marxists and other possible variations did not.

Let the libs have their small scale game- it should collapse quickly enough.

	30-07-2004 00:00									#230
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Commies had thier shot (Russia & China). It's about time Libs got thier turn.

The libs had their turn after the American Revolution. There were several problems for the working class and even business class.

	30-07-2004 00:20									#231
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The US just is NOT overrun by poverty - we are largely middle class, relative to the rest of the world, and relative to many parts of the world, the poorest Americans are fabulously wealthy.

You have no idea how the poorest Americans live. Anyone who spouts this line about how the poorest Americans live like kings compared to the rest of the world is either mendacious or just plain ignorant. The poorest Americans live in hell. And many illegal migrant workers live in the circle below that.

	30-07-2004 00:21									#232
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, but only Leninists, Stalinists and Maoists had their chance. regular Marxists and other possible variations did not.

The shot the Leninists got was in the head, by the Stalinists.

	30-07-2004 00:50									#233
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Besides, the notion of a "middle class" is brand new. For most of history those were the two choices.

So? We don't live in most of history. We live now.

Duh.

	30-07-2004 00:53									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You forgot, poverty is relative.

I guess in 300 years people will be *****ing about making "only $10 million a year" and "barely being able to pay of the loan for their 2nd spaceship"

	30-07-2004 00:56									#235
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You have no idea how the poorest Americans live. Anyone who spouts this line about how the poorest Americans live like kings compared to the rest of the world is either mendacious or just plain ignorant. The poorest Americans live in hell. And many illegal migrant workers live in the circle below that.

This is one of those rare occasions when I must agree with my favorite commie.

There is something known as the "cost of living." Just because $10,000 would make one rich in Africa does NOT mean someone who makes 10 grand/yr. in the USA isn't poor. It's all relative to what it costs to get the basics: a place to live, food, *basic* medical care, etc. Of course we can haggle over exactly what is "basic" and what is "luxury," but claiming that the American poor are actually wealthy is moronic.

At the same time, claiming that 40k per and a 1yr old car = poor is just silly. Hell, I make 50k and have a 2 yr old car (though it is an Accord, not a Civic). Does that make me poor? I think not. I'm nowhere near poor.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 00:58									#236
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmm, I suppose you see my point about welfare now.

I pointed this out at least a page ago

	30-07-2004 01:00									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You forgot, poverty is relative. I guess in 300 years people will be *****ing about making "only $10 million a year" and "barely being able to pay of the loan for their 2nd spaceship"

No, they'll be *****ing about the fact that they can't afford a decent place to live while working two jobs and can't afford to have someone look after the kids . . . OMFG, that sounds just like today.

Poverty isn't just relative. It is also absolute. While its true that someone on a poverty wage in America could live like a king overseas, they live in America, not overseas. The $100 a month airconditioned hotel room does a person in the U.S. no damned good, when affordable rent for low-income people doesn't exist anymore.

	30-07-2004 01:00									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I pointed this out at least a page ago

Yeah, well some of you can't get over the fact that I don't propose a giant welfare state.

	30-07-2004 01:02									#239
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No one is really clear on what you do propose, other than that rich people are bad and lazy and don't deserve their money.

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 01:03									#240
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A good starting place for right-wing clueless types would be Barbara Ehrenreich's book, Nickle and Dimed. For those of us who've been really poor, the book is kinda like a, yeah, duh. I think a lot of people, however, really don't understand how hard it is to be poor in America.