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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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Sorry, CH, very little time for comments. I'm trying to get the save out the door, and if possible will comment after that. But it will probably be something for tomorrow.
One thing, though: without more cash, we shouldn't upgrade all of our rifles yet. We need some to keep deficit spending towards radio. RP is not sending us anything for the next 3 or so turns.
defense plan, first iteration. Comments please!
Start
- ND sends us 672g. They should only have paid us 480, so I'm sending 192g back to them.
- RP sends WM. Send our WM. Can't send horses. Does anyone knows when Steel arrived, and if we can trade it yet?
- We discover MT! set to radio, slider to 90%, all but the Arashi inf set to tanks. We could set the slider to 100% tech and get it in 5 turns, but in this case we'd be spending too much gold, and won't have any for upgrades. Better not too rush too much.
- EotS builds our first tank, starts tank
- strange... something is wrong with Hurricane. Need to look into that.
- D-ville builds tank, starts tank
- Tempest builds tank. Starts tank
- Tornado builds transport. Starts DD
- Arashi builds inf. Starts tank
- Inchoff builds market. Starts explorer (needs shields!)
- Blizzard builds DD, starts DD
- WoC builds sub. starts sub.
bug problem
okay. This ends the first run. I just found another bug in the programming, but I'm a bit reluctant to ask for a replay again. The following happens: when you mobilize and are building a transport, the game does not give you the bonus (See Hurricane). When you then change the build to e.g. a carrier, the shields in the city view are correctly updated, but not the calculated spt in the box. Next turn, you do not get the bonus you were entitled too.
In short: while we should have had 60 spt in Hurricane ending our carrier in one turn, we currently only get 42, and do not finish it in time.
Best solution: go back one turn, and set it to Carrier before mobilizing, and no bug will happen.
my solution: spend a knnight on it this turn, and get that carrier now. However, with a knight rush, we would end at 179 shields out of 180, and there is no possibility to shortrush. So, before the tank is build I switched a tile with EotS, giving EotS 100 spt instead of 102 spt, giving Hurricane 44 spt. disband the present knight in Hurr, and let the turn continue.
Trip, if you don't agree, we need to go back one turn. It will save us the knight, so I'm in favor of it.
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do everything as planned, and do it again.
Damn.... the carrier is built as it should have been, however when setting Hurr to a tank, it doesn't update the spt 
Turn halted, we need to look into this. CH, can you confirm it's happening similarly on your PC?
Where's Trip?
- 1961 gold, 70%, 690 bpt, -121 gpt. (Mass prod in 2 of 4) 2659/3360 beakers collected.
Strange. The calculation doesn't fit, I'm missing 11 beakers somewhere...
tech cost
shortrushes
Hurricane set to DD. knight disbanded. 5 shields rushed. set to Carrier
forces
(- 7 knights, 12 MI, 2 galley)
- 14 art
- 37 workers (+0/turn)
- 1 settlers (+.2/turn)
- 76 rifle (+0/turn)
- 0 tanks (+ /turn)
- 12 galleon
- 8 destroyer (+/turn)
- 9 transports (+/turn)
- 1 carrier
- Strong in strength to GoW, average to ND and to Lego. This is before upgrading any infs
I hope anyone is willing to go through the trouble of finding out how many units Lego has (should only be a rough guess) With our rifles, we just turned average. I'm now starting to upgrade them (3 at the time), in our red cities first.
after 24 upgrades to infs, we turn strong to ND
after 42 upgrades, we're still average to Lego. Willlfort them next turn, and upgrade the rest to see how we're doing.
Moves
In general, the specific worker moves are not covered anymore, it gets too tedious. Only important stuff is mentioned.
- pollution control
- irr Hurricane 2, 3
- mine Cyclone 7
- 2 workers added to Cyclone
- RP didn't move off their hill, so it has no fort.
- rest of our workers skipped turn.
in total, 5 more forests remain. Our workers are becoming obsolete, everything is done. Radio in ~7 turns, after which we'll convert them to radar towers
- Horatio now has 2 destroyers next to it (skipped turn). We also spotted a Lego transport right off their coast. They are changing their pickets, it seems, another 2 ironclads (waste of good shields) moves into view.
- DD in Inchoff forts
- D from Typhoon automoves towards Hurricane
- galley arrived at its spot near Pica. automoves the galleon present there towards Sufa
- carrier automoves towards Blizzard
- I'm forting the pickets again, instead of sentrying... I don't like it that when one wakes, I can't spot a number of tiles anymore.
workforce shuffles
- Cyclone: damn. one thing I didn't check last turn, and of course it happens: explorers don't get the mob bonus! We can't get Cyclone to 20 spt without it... maybe Inchoff is 20 spt once the market completes, in the mean time I'm building one here, at 2 turns... afterwards it's probably going to be a unit of some sorts.
One citizen set to taxman
further, gives game to BB, takes mined plain from EotS, gives all bonus grass and a wheat to Tornado.
- Other cities compensate (EotS takes irr plain from BB)
- Typhoon gives one grass to Cyclone, set to subs (50 spt)
- Monsoon gives hill to WW. Needs to retake it next turn.
- WW takes hill, instead of sea. next turn sea, turn after hill again. In total, it cuts the eta of the tank-1 (but costs 2 food, and as it is at a 3-turn cycle, and Monsoon at a 2-turn cycle, will have to wait a little before we can do it again)
- Elipolis gives grass to Inchon gets coast instead
- WoC gives grass to Inchon. Will probably change to Inchoff next turn, but that was already perfectly timed on the market
- SA gives grass to D-ville. Takes grass from Blizzard
- D-ville loses coast
- Blizzard takes coast
- Blizzard gives desert to SS, takes coast instead
- SS on schedule for 5-turn settler, by swapping with mountain. Next turn, take back mountain
Current Builds
long term plans for our cities
Eli : catyhedral in 2
Inchon : aqua in 7
WoC : sub in 1
Inchoff : market in 1. (explorers next?)
D-ville : tank in 1
Santa Ana : Battlefield Medicine in 2. (Tanks next)
Blizzard : destroyer in 1. (destroyer next)
Monsoon : tank in 2
Arashi : inf in 1
WW : tank in 3
Tempest : tank in 1
SS: settler in 3
Hurricane : Carrier in 1. I hope I was correct in calculating: I didn't change before mob. It could be that I'm one shield short (should have 1 over)
OG : DD in 4
EotS : tank in 1
Bolderberg : DD in 2
Cyclone: explorer in 2 (see above for explanation)
Tornado : transport in 1
Typhoon : sub in 2
Sufa : market in 89
Other
- Lego got SM. I'm sending it to ND, RP, and to GoW.
Not a bad move from Lego, as they can be sure MT will devaluate (we need to send it to GoW sometime soon)
- CH: message to GoW (when you get back  ) please: Lego going for AT? we will delay MT for as long as possible, notify us when you need it
oh, and if they can spare any gold (they still owe us 1k5), it would be welcome, as we're upgrading our defenses right now!
- in F11, we're #3 in production at 701 Megatons. (last turn 697) before Mob (and before irr near Hurricane: turned 693). Also, when putting our slider down, we were passed by ND in GNP as well, we're currently only 4th. And it's not so close either, as productivity is also 4th.
after mob, we're at 866 (it's been 900 as well, when shuffling builds and tiles). total production back in 3rd place (1831)
- this was one of the longest turns I played, even with the preparation. Took over 3 hours!
Next Turn
- when discovering MT, set all inf builds to tanks... except for the Arashi one (which will only net 90 shields)
- tweak terrain around Monsoon
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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That sucks. I'm not suprised this hasn't been noticed before, as I image few pbems survive til mobilization, and even fewer of those are as scrutinized as this.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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let me first continue with the previous.
SA is one of our main producers (currently #4, after our 3 100 spt cities in mob). If that doesn't function right, we're looking at a tremendous loss. Not because its 70 spt are usefull, but because we can distribute that surpluss to 3 other cities.
The one exception would be Cyclone, which we could set to a unit, mob, and then set it to explorer, getting an unwanted bonus.
There is solution to this behaviour, and that comes in the form of repeatedly declaring and offering war to e.g. RP (Vox would be better, as it doesn't require any deals to end. But they will also know what is happening). That way, we can remobilize each time, getting the bonus correctly. However, I've got to think on how to use this, as on first thought we either get hit by WW, or by losing one turn of bonus shields. But perhaps there is a certain procedure that gets the job done, especially considering the moments we discover techs (so we can mob before production).
It's going to be messy, though.
Oh, as to the cost of all of this:
- Hurricane is costing us 1 DD every 3 turns (40spt). That can easily be corrected by going back, and mobilizing after setting the build to carrier.
- Elipolis suffers 10 spt at least
- Inchoff suffers over 5 spt in case we don't go for explorers)
- Tornado suffers over 10 spt
- SA suffers over 20 spt.
in total, that's 85 spt. We might be able to compensate a little, but that's over 10% of our global production. Worth fighting for, I would say.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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Other stuff I didn't had time for before
quote:
Originally posted by Cort Haus
I assume we're upgrading the rest of the Rifles this turn, so to save DeepO a little checking I can confirm that we still end up average in strength to Lego with all Rifles upgraded. They have a lot of Inf - though some of that strength will probably be in Cavalry.
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hum... to be more precise, we will not upgrade our infs, or at least not all of them, unless we get some major funds from GoW. As flight will end our research advantage in Hurricane, I want to have as much of research as possible done. We need gold to have deficit spending on tech.
quote:
Are we looking to upgrade the Med Inf sooner or later? If sooner then I need to press MZ, though I'd rather not press for the money when we're recommending thay hang back on receiving our tech. Cash on Delivery, they could argue. |
Definately later. If at all. guerilla aren't that useful, and they cost a lot. If we get into trouble upgrading, those units are the first to leave behind, in the first place because we've got tanks as attackers, and infs as defenders. If we've got the money to burn, I'm in favor of keeping them, otherwise I just see them as ways to make it difficult for Lego to bomb our resource tiles.
quote:
A thought on tech - I don't think it'll be easy to shut the door on the tech relationship with GoW now (as has been suggested), while maintaining a healthy military alliance against Lego. I should say that this is in line with my aversion to the proposed policy of backstabbing GoW should the Lego campaign be successful. |
I've been thinking the same thing. However, we could for instance trade them rocketry for computers, or something similar. If we want to win by war, we only have one choice and that is to get to MA first, and take a large piece out of a Bobian civ. Otherwise, we're doomed, as others have far better production capabilities as us.
Besides, who wants to play for over a year for a SS victory.
Oh, and we're planning here to win, but let's stay realistic. Our first goal has to be our survival. Giving a superior producer equal research is very tricky, especially as they know we might not have the production to stay in the race long, but currently have the firepower to e.g. take them out. Don't forget we can attack GoW in less then 10 turns, and most likely wipe them out in case no other civs intervene (ND will intervene, of course)
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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This is only temporarily, if we can agree to compensate and not have perfect results. e.g. Cyclone: we can make it a 1-turn explorer by abusing the bug, instead of a 2-turn explorer. This gains us 10 spt.
Don't forget: in 2 turns time, all our domestic builds will be finished. At that time, we can put all our cities (except Inchon and Sufa, which are of no importance) to units, mob, and get the bonus we deserve. I'm only thinking on how to make sure we get no WW, but still have all the effects we need.
Does anyone know if, at a time of ending a war, you are asked if you want to continue to be in mob, or are you automatically demob'ed? This makes a big difference: if the question is asked, we can almost certainly do it without too many losses (perhaps only losing a lux to RP for a turn or so).
CH, I totally agree that it will focus attention, and that in case someone else wants to mobilize, it's going to be an unpleasant affair. But do we really have a choice at this moment?
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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situation: once this turn is replayed, we've got tanks, and start on radio. We do not have flight, nor marines. GoW is going for those, and it will take some 6-8 turns for them to get both techs
We've got a deal with GoW, getting them to tanks, in exchange for flight, marines, and a bunch of gold. This deal only goes as far as tanks, nothing further. We haven't talked about radio, nor have we said anything about modern era techs.
privately, we want to go for radio (defense), and for computers (MI instead of inf). We've got, with the cash we still expect from GoW, RP and ND, enough gold to get to MI before invasion, meaning we can be the only team that lands with MI. GoW can't buy radio and computers directly from us at that time, or it has to be on credit (and frankly, who is willing to risk that).
so, we can e.g. set up a trade of radio for rocketry or something similar, but it will always be an advance offer from us, for future benefits... very risky.
There is one advantage, though: by trading radio for rocketry, we can go towards MA (they need alu). But nothing decisive has been said about this...
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
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defense plan, first iteration. Comments please!
Aeson's comments
Start
- ND sends us 480g. euhm... one little problem, though: it seems I forgot to send them SM last replayed turn. Doing so now 
- RP sends WM. Send our WM + SM. Can't send horses. Does anyone knows when Steel arrived, and if we can trade it yet?
- We discover MT! set to radio, slider to 90%, all but the Arashi inf set to tanks. We could set the slider to 100% tech and get it in 5 turns, but in this case we'd be spending too much gold, and won't have any for upgrades. Better not too rush too much.
- EotS builds our first tank, starts tank
- Hurricane builds carrier. Starts DD (also perfect for carrier builds, but I don't know yet how many we'll need)
- D-ville builds tank, starts tank
- pollution strikes Eli (on the same spot as last time, so good chance the other teams did replay correctly)
- Tempest builds tank. Starts tank
- Tornado builds transport. Starts tank. Is one of the cities not hit by the bug, it seems, as it updates the information correctly. Strange.
- Arashi builds inf. Starts tank
- Inchoff builds market. Starts tank (bonus, perhaps? checking that later on, otherwise changed to explorers.)
- Blizzard builds DD, starts DD
- WoC builds sub. starts sub.
- sending SM to GoW, as I forgot that one as well.
- 1265 gold, 90%, 899 bpt, -285 gpt. (radio in 6 of 6) 0/4800 beakers collected.
tech cost
shortrushes
damn shame I don't have granaries to shortrush too. Elipolis needs 2 shields to get back on track after the pollution. shortrushing knight (12 shields, 48 gold), switching back to tank.
forces
(- 6 knights, 12 MI, 2 galley)
- 14 art
- 35 workers (+0/turn)
- 1 settlers (+.2/turn)
- 24 rifle
- 53 inf
- 3 tanks (+ /turn)
- 12 galleon
- 9 destroyer (+/turn)
- 10 transports (+/turn)
- 2 carrier
- 1 sub (+1/turn)
- Strong in strength to GoW, and to ND, average to Lego.
I'm not sure if we want to upgrade our infs, maybe better to do at least some of them. We need at least 1k1 in gold to get to radio in time, though, without having to depend on anyone else.
- upgraded 4 rifles on mountains on the Lego coast to infs. Still average to Lego.
Moves
In general, the specific worker moves are not covered anymore, it gets too tedious. Only important stuff is mentioned.
- pollution control
- forting last hill in RP
- irr SA 21
- irr Cyclone 8. Should have done that previous turn, but it won't matter much (if at all)
- foresting Tornado 89
- I'm deliberately not irr any tile next to Bolderberg, even if strictly speaking I could. RIght now, pollution has about 50% chance to not do any harm.
- 3 forest remains, 1 near Tornado, one near SA / D-ville, one near Inchoff / WoC. I'm saving those, as currently there is no good use for them.
- rest of our workers skipped turn.
I'm starting on the fleet on the spots Aeson indicated: Hurricane 6, Blizzard 2, and Sufa (which is no problem as there are already several ships in Sufa waiting). I want to take it slowly, though, as over time we need to bring the galleons back home, and replace them with DDs. Otherwise we can't upgrade them without Lego suspecting things.
- One of Horatio's DDs moves to Hurr 6 and forts. The other one stays, and will follow Horatio to our furthest Galleon, and replace that one.
- one Sufa DD automoves towards Hurr 6
- one Sufa DD automoves towards Sufa 6666333. When arrived, the Galleon in that neighbourhood moves home.
- sub moves 666.
- Blizzard DD moves 6 and forts.
- all other ships either continue on their way, or are forted.
workforce shuffles
- Cyclone builds one explorer, after which it starts on settlers.
- Monsson takes hill back from WW (instead of coast). Next turn swithc again, to get WW tank eta-1.
- Elipolis gives hill to Inchon.
- Inchone gives grass back to WoC
- WoC gives grass to Inchoff
- D-ville gives grass to SA, takes coast instead. D-ville has some extra shields, which could be converted to +1bpt, but I'm not risking it: currently, it can get hit by pollution, and remains on schedule.
- SA gives grasses on 6 and 3 to Blizzard. Perfect shields, Blizzard has some extras (but might need them next turn)
- Sufa gives grass back to Tornado, takes coast instead.
Current Builds
long term plans for our cities
Eli : tank in 1 at 40 spt, is a bit ill placed for units, and is waiting for bombers.
Inchon : aqua in 5
WoC : sub in 1 tanks next
Inchoff : tanks in 7. In case WLTKD doesn't update the shield situation next turn (and thus we're hit by the bug), we would be best to build transports for the time being.
D-ville : tank in 2
Santa Ana : Battlefield Medicine in 1. (Tanks next)
Blizzard : destroyer in 3. (destroyer next)
Monsoon : tank in 1
[Arashi : tank in 2
WW : tank in 3 (should eta-1 next turn, with hill swap with Monsoon)
Tempest : tank in 1
SS: settler in 2 (shows 3)
Hurricane : DD in 2
OG : DD in 4
EotS : tank in 1
Bolderberg : DD in 1
Cyclone: explorer in 1. settlers next
Tornado : tank in 2
Typhoon : sub in 1
Sufa : market in 86
Other
- I'll be asking ND if they have Espionage yet. Next turn would be the last one on which we can switch the BM to the CIA... otherwise, SA still would make a fine candidate to build the CIA later.
- F8 culture doesn't show the dent I was expecting, maybe next turn. power is rising fast, though, with all the upgrades.
- in F11, we're #1 in production at 902. productivity 1920, #2. I wonder how many teams have spotted our mobilization 
- (better) screenshots are coming.
Next Turn
- switch tiles between Monsoon and WW
- watch if SA, Inchoff can get the bonus
DeepO
Last edited by DeepO on 07-08-2004 at 01:20
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01-08-2004 18:47
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