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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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some calculation on what one extra lux would bring us, and how much we would be willing to pay for it.
lux provides happy faces (and not content), and if there are no content citizens one happy face will change one unhappy to a happy one, right? If so, the following cities will have an effect by 1 more Lux:
- EotS: WLTKD. Effect minimal, I doubt we will lose the 1 shield waste. Perhaps corruption goes down from 2 to 1 cpt.
- WoC: can grow to size 12, instead of 11. Net effect is that Iron works will arrive one turn faster (at the expense of eta of market in Inchoff), and an extra cpt is created after corruption
- Typhoon can grow to size 12. But its currently at size 10, and before a harbor completes, there is little point in doing so.
- Sufa can grow to size 12, is currently at size 10.
- SA gets into WLTKD, but as fast as it grows, that will end. waste is moderate, perhaps we'll lose 1 spt waste, 2 cpt corruption.
- Inchon gets into WLTKD. 1 spt, 3 cpt gain?
- WW gets into WLTKD. 1 cpt gain?
That's about it. Of course, it won't take long before our whole territory is RRed, and we can pump all city sizes up again, so the effect is greater than what is seen here, but as a positive guess, I come to ~10 cpt, and ~4 spt. That's not much... in total maybe worth 20 gpt to us, so 10 gpt for the lux seems more then enough.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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economical plan for our cities
This is going to take a while to get right. I would prefer it if other people could also take a look at these numbers to see mistakes / improvements, as I'm sure this can be tweaked a lot better than this first idea.
The current turn is 200.... first a timeline of techs:
201: Corp.
203: RP (GoW) Can ultimately wait until 217 to be given to us(and we might need to delay it for the shields. Assumed is immediate handover to us)
207: Steel and refining (refining from GoW, possibily one turn later)
213: Combustion. GoW needs to be on gold in the mean time, and we'll have to sell it this to them to keep a decent time-line.
218: Mass production (either us or GoW, whoever has the best science at that time. Could very well be them.)
222: marines (GoW)
223: tanks (us)
flight can be done by whoever is not doing Mass production, but I'm not sure we'll need it at that time. It can't slow down our progress, though, we'll have plenty of time to do it while building tanks.
At most, count 2 turns delay because of the need to trade techs.
estimate of needed forces
initial force:
30 marines
20 arts (or half of these in bombers)
30 tanks
20 infs
2 settlers and a couple of workers
13 transports to carry these (without chaining)
20 destroyers for protection, picket obliteration, and bombardment. Battleships optional, but not needed (only in case a BS takes as long to build as a destroyer)
immediate reinforcements (at most 2 turns later then initial force):
20 arts or bombers
10 fighters if Lego has bombers
50 tanks
20 infs
couple of settlers and workers
13 transports to carry this
5 destroyers for protection
later reinforcements: whatever we can build and transport. maybe we need more tanks to be sure reinforcements will come quickly. If we can't chain, we'll need enough transports, and should consider ours expandable.
Oh, and this is just a guess... if we can't pull it of with these numbers, we better don't even try.
build costs
rifle: 80
marine: 100
tank: 100
inf: 90
art: 80
galleon: 60
transport: 100
destroyer: 120
specific city timelines
EotS
206: Hoover (will increase spt by 50% for all cities, virtually in 205 as EotS is the first city in the queue)
212: factory (68 spt, ~90 spt in mobilization)
- with a hospital and some losses from either Hurricane or Bolderberg, it can become a 100 spt city. Otherwise it would have to lower pop to 8-9 in order to get a 50 spt, something we can also work with. A hospital will not be needed before turn 222 if we go in mobilization fast, rifles can fill the gap.
215: hospital. add workers. In case we lack rubber, we can do this later
222: 7 infs
from then on 1-turn tanks or marines
Arashi
205: Factory. (60 spt, 82 spt in mobilization)
1 turn rifles or arts without hospital. Otherwise needs to lower pop. Tempest holds the same problem, and has a science wonder, I think it will be best to lower Arashi to 50 spt in mobilization.
222: either 17 rifles / arts, or more likely half of those infs.
From then on, 2-turn tanks.
Tempest
202: factory (45 spt when all hills are used)
206: hospital. Also Hoover, meaning 100 spt in mobilization.
222: 16 infs.
from then on, 1-turn tanks / marines.
D-ville
202: factory (36 spt)
cathedral would lower corruption as it will bring D-ville in WLTKD. Harbor will gain shields as well.
204: with a bit of shortrushing, harbor
207: cathedral (~60 spt, can give some shields to SA to get to 50 spt. mobilization will get it to ~80 spt, but ship builds aren't affected, and we need ships.)
213: 6 galleons
223: 5 transports or destroyers (more will not reach our other coast in time). Choice depends on need for shields for SA.
from then on, 2-turn tanks.
WoC
207: Iron Works (38 spt)
213: factory (if possible to short rush) (57 spt)
215: market
218: cathedral (WLTKD. 75 spt, ~100 spt in mobilization (depends on exact levels of waste in WLTKD).
Note that in mobilization we can't start either a market or a cathedral, and seeing we'll need it soon for other cities, we'll probably have to start these before the factory, or buy those improvements before starting on a factory. Also note that we have plenty of workers to chop some forest we need to plant first, this can help here.
222: 4 infs, 4 arts, or 2 destroyers.
from then on, 1-turn tanks.
The rest is coming, but my eyes grow tired of having to scroll this info all the time.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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Bolderberg
205: factory (26 spt, 34 spt Hoover, 50 spt in mob)
BB could be helped with a hospital, as it has 4 more sea tiles nobody else can use, and a bank present (no uni).
Otherwise, it can produce galleons. focus is on units, so let's do that first.
213: 4 galleons (without mob)
222: 3 transports, or 2 destroyers (221)
after that, 2-turn tanks, 3-turn transports or 4-turn destroyers
Hurricane
203: factory (possibly 30 spt, more likely 27 spt)
206: Hoover gets it to 40 spt, or 34 spt (last one probably). 50 spt in mob
[edit:]207: Hospital as per CH's suggestion. [/edit]
213: [edit;]3[/edit] galleons (no mob)
222: 3 transports or 3 destroyers.
after that, 2-turn tanks.
Blizzard
206: factory (34 spt, >50 spt in Mob)
209: market
(cathedral will get it in WLTKD, leading to ~38 spt, ~60 in mob)
213: 2 galleon
222: 3 transports, or 2 destroyers (with the cath, it will be near 3-turn destroyers instead of 4-turn. cath costs 3 turns to build, making it worthwile if things work out all right)
after that, 2-turn tanks
Typhoon
208: factory (30 spt, 42 spt in mob) (should give some shields back to Sufa for better growth)
211: harbor
214: market
222: 2 destroyers
after that, 3-turn tanks
Alternatively, Typhoon is used for growth. can grow to size 17 with hospital (5-6 turns). We need some space for our extra workers... but should need a uni in here as well
WW
211: factory (24 spt, maybe 25. 33 spt in mob)
215: aquaduct
market?
225: 2 destroyers
after that, 3-turns tanks
Monsoon
>217: factory (28 spt. ~36 spt in mob)
3-turn infs
Tornado
203: factory (16spt)
206: Hoover gives 22 spt, or ~33 spt in mob. Can take some from Sufa if we want.
213: 3 galleons
221: 2 transport (or with some rushing 2 destroyers)
from then on, 3-turn tanks
Santa Ana
<215: factory (~25 spt, ~33 spt in mob. Maybe more because D-ville can shrink)
219: market (if not in mob!)
222: 1 inf.
from then on, 3-turn tanks
OG
<216: factory (~25 spt, ~33 spt in mob)
222: 2 destroyers
from then on, 3-turn tanks
Sufa
I'm thinking on stopping the factory build in Sufa. still 22 turns left, after which it will produce 14 spt, 20 spt in mob. If those shields don't go to either Typhoon or Tornado...
a market instead could also help.
anyway:
222: factory (14 spt, 20 in mob)
5-turn tanks
last cities (Elipolis, Inchon, Inchoff) won't build factories, and will focus on the cheapest defenders (a ratio of 15 - to 20 turns per unit). Eli might change into a factory after its harbor (needs 30 turns to complete it, but can have 20 spt in mob), the rest is no use.
Cyclone will stay on 1-turn workers,
SS is a better place to build settlers, or once we don't need those anymore, can become a reasonable second-tier city.
totals
before turn 220, this calculation leads to the following in numbers:
rifles: 17, if discovered late, and with 8 less infs
infs or arts): 7+8+16+2+1 = 34
tanks (or marines, costs the same): 0 (huh)
galleons: 6+4+5+2+3 = 20 (add 3 we have already)
transports: 3
destroyers: 5+2+3+2+2+2+2+2 = 20
After that, we have on average 7.35 tanks per turn, and .33 infs per turn.
Last thing to keep in mind: our workers can, once all mountains and hills have been RRed, forest-deforest all tiles, for some 800 shields extra. These are an additional 8 tanks in our calculations.
conclusion
So, as a first guess, we will need until turn 222 to get our transports, and destroyers in place. We should need a bit more for our defenders, but this might come from upgrading (we have plenty of units around, just not the cash to do decent things with it). for the 80 tanks and 30 marines, we'll need 15 turns after discovery of mot. transp. (part of this when invasion is under way)
That puts our embarkment date somewhere around 234, invasion date at 239. Any later will see us getting more troops, but means we'll probably be facing tanks, bombers, or fighters (scouting) of our own.
Oh, any extra's would be welcome, e.g. a carrier filled with fighters on air-superiority if Lego has bombers (probably).
DeepO
Last edited by DeepO on 01-05-2004 at 14:29
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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Yeah, mob in 215 seems near ideal. I'll have to check it, but I think that in the cities where we need other buildings after that time, we can do some forest chopping to speed things up a little. Maybe mob in 214 can work too...
extra tranports: very true... however somehow I don't see us getting these specific numbers and turns anyway. It could very well be that we have a bit less of tanks, for instance. Some of these transports could be empty. Also, incase we can chain, we won't need that many...
Also, in case Lego has flight, and thus can scout where our transports are (they will be warned we're coming when we destroy their pickets), we should probably include more marines in our first wave, at the expense of tanks. But they cost the same, and come at the same time, so economically it's no difference. I'll leave the precise layout of our army to our generals 
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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CH, I need to see the save (this evening is going to be one long planning session, I think. Luckily I've got nothing else to do then to play this turn  ), but that certainly was the plan. As I don't have access to the save right now, I can't really comment, but as long as we don't have rubber and aren't in mobilization, 80 spt in Tempest should be feasible. We can not only use coast for this (which we'll need), but also the tiles from Arahsi: if that city gets to 40 spt, it has enough. If it can get to 50 spt, it can build 2-turn arts. Anything else is a waste... so I think the following few turns are either going to see Arashi starving, or building workers, whatever is most efficient for our unit-count.
This turn will certainly see us creating a totally different patch work of tiles to use, to ensure most efficient use. I would not be suprised if it is going to take 4-5 hours before the save is sent.
Oh, and if you spot any other things like this in the mean time, please post them! I'm going to post my ideas when I play, so that people who are on-line can check what I'm doing, and comment immediately.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:30
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Oh, there are a lot more numbers we want, CH... but in general you're right. One small example: 28+26+26 also gives 80, while a joining city might have a 29-31-31-29 rythm for galleons.
Then count the forest chops, and possible short rushing, and you've got an idea of the planning task we face
There are a couple of easy cities, though. Tornado can't give any more shields to EotS or Sufa, IIRC. That's relatively fixed. Tempest will be a fixed city, most likely. WoC will be a fixed city. The rest, however, will most likely change every turn.
Re: your thoughts:
1. is especially nice, I totally forgot about that one! That could mean that WoC needs a hospital as well, only to have that bonus. Need to calculate that, though. And if we can choose, WoC needs a cathedral before a hospital, as a WLTKD would give us more then 2 shields. (well, it's more with Hoover, factory and IW, of course)
2. Agree. But I've been using that for as much as possible: Hurricane will be constraint by EotS, which needs to become a 100 spt city in mobilization, Tempest is a bit more free, but needs to get to 100 spt in mobilization as well. Any additional tiles will be wasted, and we can't afford that.
3. I mentioned this to Arnelos in chat already, however we can't do it now unless we know a lot of goods will come from it. Forest chopping for factories is our priority with the workers.
4. I've been thinking on this, and I doubt it. upgrading those units will mean bucketloads of gold, which we don't have. Maybe a few, but so far the planning called for upgrades of galleons and rifles, and I think that will cost us enough gold already. However, we can't underestimate what RP can deliver: they're making 85 gpt right now, and this will increase soon. Their output alone will be enough to upgrade 30-40 pikes before we go to war. Nice.
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:30
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Are the blue dots to be forested/deforested, or are they the already done squares?
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11-04-2004 04:12
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