03-08-2004 20:31									#31
	Re: Re: English! English! When did America stop speaking English? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Here's the problem. You think everyone's supposed to speak English. Nope, not the case. In the U.S., we have this thing called the 1st Amendment. I know they don't teach y'all much about the Bill of Rights in the South, but it says that people have the right to free speech. Also, you might consider the fact that you live in occupied Mexico, which is a Spanish speaking country.

	03-08-2004 20:34									#32
	Re: Re: Re: Re: English! English! When did America stop speaking English? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are you advocating a law requiring the ability to speak English as a term of employment?

no, im not, but I doubt such a law would be a violation of the 1st amendment right to freedom of speech.

	03-08-2004 20:36									#33
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Not that it's any concern, but most of the CFRs (Code of Federal Regulations) that I have read require communication and records to be in English ONLY. This applies to government and government regulated industries only however. Thus, in some since, America does have an un-"official" language.

	03-08-2004 20:36									#34
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Generally, shouldn't it be a general job requirement? It isn't the law, but its a general thing to do good business. It drives customers away.

	03-08-2004 20:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Generally, shouldn't it be a general job requirement? It isn't the law, but its a general thing to do good business. It drives customers away.

If youre running a business where the strategy is based on minimum wage labor, and you cant get minimum wage labor if you impose that requirement .....

	03-08-2004 20:45									#36
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It shouldn't definately be a job requirement. Especially when the job involves customer service.

	03-08-2004 20:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf It shouldn't definately be a job requirement. Especially when the job involves customer service.

Comes down to demand - would you pay 20% more to have an English speaker serve you? If you're at a cheap place, expect dheap service.

	03-08-2004 20:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark OTOH, arent govt documents required to ALSO be in English, even in a place where where EVERYONE speaks the second language the documents are in? Arent all INTERNAL govt documents in English? Isnt knowledge of English a universal requirement for government employment? I would think in this sense English IS the official language (im replying to BG as well here)

Yes, all government documents must be in English- though of course, there is no locality in our county in which say less than 20% of the pop speaks english, unless you get to a very small level, like individual neighborhoods. So that "% of pop rule holds for English everywhere.

Yes, English as our common language is mandated by the government- BUt that is not say it is the official language. Though you can pass laws for example requiring all signs for businesses to include english, as they have done in NYC. Does not mean everyone does it though (certain sections of Chinatown, you barely see any signs in English sometimes)

	03-08-2004 20:48									#39
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Well I guess I could just point at the menu...

	03-08-2004 20:49									#40
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Long live the Spanish Reconquista!

	03-08-2004 20:53									#41
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So, what if I have nerve stapled citizens to work for me? Sure, they're so submissive, they don't even collect their wages, but do I want the 50% production penalty?

	03-08-2004 20:53									#42
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, all government documents must be in English- though of course, there is no locality in our county in which say less than 20% of the pop speaks english, unless you get to a very small level, like individual neighborhoods. So that "% of pop rule holds for English everywhere.

But there are probably at some areas where at least 80% of the population DOES speak Spanish, so if English were treated the way Spanish is, English would not be required.

IIUC, Spanish (or other languages) is only required in areas where a certain percentage of the population speaks a language other than English and DOES NOT speak English. Am I incorrect?

	03-08-2004 20:54									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, all government documents must be in English- though of course, there is no locality in our county in which say less than 20% of the pop speaks english, unless you get to a very small level, like individual neighborhoods. So that "% of pop rule holds for English everywhere. Yes, English as our common language is mandated by the government- BUt that is not say it is the official language. Though you can pass laws for example requiring all signs for businesses to include english, as they have done in NYC. Does not mean everyone does it though (certain sections of Chinatown, you barely see any signs in English sometimes)

I rather suspect there are quite a number of laws that arent particularly followed in Chinatown, from gambling to minimum wage laws.

	03-08-2004 20:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat Oh give me a break Boris Get real. While there may not be a law per say on the books

You mean, "per se?"

quote: that says we speak English here what kind of a freeking moron do you have to be to think that you wouldn't have to speak the one common language that we speak over here?

The "freaking" moron would be correct, as nobody has to speak English. As che noted, we have the Constitution to consider, and people can speak whatever damned language they choose.

If you don't like people speaking in Spanish, then don't speak to them. If you don't like employers hiring people who don't speak English well, complain to the companies or stop patronizing them. But please stop the nonsense that people are obligated to speak English in the U.S., because that's simply not the case.

	03-08-2004 21:05									#45
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Official language
English as the official language
People who move to America, legally or illegally, and don't learn English

If I travel to, say, France, I would learn at least enough French to get around. If I moved to France with the intention and working and living there, I would certainly take the time to learn the language.

Last edited by Verto on 03-08-2004 at 23:05

	03-08-2004 21:09									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Official language English as the official language People who move to America, legally or illegally, and don't learn English

Might want to rething those smilies?

	03-08-2004 21:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark How about if all (legal) immigrants to the US who dont speak English were provided with the equivalent of an Ulpan - a period when the govt pays their upkeep while they learn English intensively full time?? I think in that case the aversion to social programs and "handouts" would overcome the cultural nationalism. Unfortunately, IMHO.

If you want to be a Canadian citizen via immigration, you have to take a test to show your proficiency in either English or French.

	03-08-2004 21:23									#48
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I understand the general problematic, but I don't agree on Spanish. After all, Spanish speakers in the Southwest are, well, not really aboriginal but at least as aboriginal to that area as English speaking people are at the East Coast. That should mean their language should be as acceptable in public as is English, including double language schooling etc. I'd consider everything else repressive against a national minority. We have traditional Slovenian, Hungarian and Croatian minorities in Austria and they are given special rights for using their language at school etc., while in numbers they are much less than, say, Turks.

	03-08-2004 21:30									#49
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Why are you all complaining. The English have the right to complain: you Americans took their language and rendered it incomprehensible.

Then again, think of the Geordies....

	03-08-2004 21:34									#50
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An NZer complaining of messing up English?

	03-08-2004 21:34									#51
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I generally don't complain about having to speak spanish now and than, which I am bad at but know enough words to get what I want.

What I do have a problem with is when you do go to the store or restaurant and when you order or whatever they don't have the decency to say "yo no se" or "no habla english" or whatever. What they should at least learn to say is "I don't speak English well, sorry." Still, half the time you just get a blank stare or a wrong order, thus wasting my time. Most of the ppl in my area that speak spanish, however, are learning english... But it doesn't get learned in a day, and I can contest to that having lived in CA all my life and still can't say that I speak spanish.

	03-08-2004 21:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat Si! Tiamat no esta aqui. Un mensai?

I think you mean "mensaje?" (message?)

Are you really surprised people with bottom-end jobs have bottom-end skills?

And besides, hate to burst your bubble, but nobody's "supposed" to speak any particular language here. First Amendment and all, so there's no "official" language. Where my niece and nephew live in Wisconsin, there are plenty of people whose families have been here for several generations who are primary German or Swede speakers, and their English is accented. Thank Abe Lincoln and Carl Schurz for that one.

You could try some parts of San Jose, where English was about the fourth language on the list.

	03-08-2004 21:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I understand the general problematic, but I don't agree on Spanish. After all, Spanish speakers in the Southwest are, well, not really aboriginal but at least as aboriginal to that area as English speaking people are at the East Coast. That should mean their language should be as acceptable in public as is English, including double language schooling etc. I'd consider everything else repressive against a national minority. We have traditional Slovenian, Hungarian and Croatian minorities in Austria and they are given special rights for using their language at school etc., while in numbers they are much less than, say, Turks.

More specifically, the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, formally ending the Mexican war and ceding what is now the southwestern US to the US, gave Mexican residents and their descendants the right to speak English in perpetuity. Same thing was done in the Lousiana Purchase with the grant of citizenship to any French inhabitants of the Louisiana territory.

	03-08-2004 21:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I understand the general problematic, but I don't agree on Spanish. After all, Spanish speakers in the Southwest are, well, not really aboriginal but at least as aboriginal to that area as English speaking people are at the East Coast. That should mean their language should be as acceptable in public as is English, including double language schooling etc. I'd consider everything else repressive against a national minority. We have traditional Slovenian, Hungarian and Croatian minorities in Austria and they are given special rights for using their language at school etc., while in numbers they are much less than, say, Turks.

Most of the people in question are NOT descendants of pre-1848 hispanic communities - most are in fact recent immigrants from Mexico and elsewhere. The only really large pre-1848 hispanic community is in Northern New Mexico, IIUC. I for one would not have a problem with granting special rights to the Spanish language in Northern New Mexico - id consider it rather problematic to establish such rights across the entire Southwest. Indeed, the prospect of such rights, and ultimately calls for autonomy or independence inspire some of the paranoia about hispanic immigration.

I would say that making claims for the Spanish language in the Southwest based on its pre-1848 history is NOT the way to get the US to take a positive approach to immigration and diversity.

	03-08-2004 22:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat More specifically, the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, formally ending the Mexican war and ceding what is now the southwestern US to the US, gave Mexican residents and their descendants the right to speak English in perpetuity.

A right none of us want taken away, Im sure.

	03-08-2004 22:03									#56
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i wonder what would happen if I went into McDonalds and tried to order in Yiddish?

"Gibt mir die "super size" bulbes, bitte."

	03-08-2004 22:07									#57
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quote: Where my niece and nephew live in Wisconsin, there are plenty of people whose families have been here for several generations who are primary German or Swede speakers, and their English is accented. Thank Abe Lincoln and Carl Schurz for that one.

There's still first-language Swedish speakers over there? Who'da thunk ...

	03-08-2004 22:08									#58
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quote: You could try some parts of San Jose, where English was about the fourth language on the list

So true. I went to the asian market and the owners there spoke Vietnamese or Korean or something like that... Their second language was Spanish!

	03-08-2004 22:08									#59
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The USA just had not been the same since it quip speaking Algonquin and Siouian.

	03-08-2004 22:16									#60
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark i wonder what would happen if I went into McDonalds and tried to order in Yiddish?

Sadly, many Americans seem to think it's perfectly okay that, when abroad, they walk up to people and start speaking in English. If we expect people to speak English here, then why shouldn't we be expected to speak the vernacular of a country when traveling there?