03-08-2004 23:47									#91
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Most of our immigrants learn to be reasonably proficient in English, too. We just have such a large number that the likelihood of encountering those who aren't is greatly increased, especially in the areas of high immigrant population. There are enclaves in NYC of people who don't speak English, which is rather astonishing to me.

And it's not just people from third world countries. Many upscale sushi restaurants in Manhattan employ Japanese waiters and sushi chefs who speak almost no English. But it's not worth complaining about when you're enjoying some of the best Toro sushi you can buy.

	03-08-2004 23:48									#92
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quote: Does Canada not have guarantees of free speech under whatever their fundamental law is? Yet Quebecs language laws are ok

No they aren't. The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on 3(?) separate occasions that Quebec's language laws violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We can thank the Notwithstanding clause for the fact that they're still here.

	03-08-2004 23:50									#93
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quote: ARVN Veteran's club

"Never fired and only dropped once"

	04-08-2004 00:09									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov As MTG noted, this is a real stretch on reality. I sincerely doubt that Tiamat has no alternative but to patronize Spanish-only businesses. This is what bugs me about rants against non-English speakers in the U.S. It's simply not an epidemic. Everyone will, once in a while, come across someone with whom contact is aggravating due to this, but this is overwhelmingly not the norm, even in the areas where Spanish is widely spoken. People like to take isolated incidents and blow them out of proportion. But really, how often is it problem enough that it causes people disruption? Once a week? Once a month? Big deal. .

I dont know. I live near DC, and try to avoid McDonalds, Wal mart, etc, and i certainly have these issues every once in a while. If youre a working class anglo, and live in, say, Texas, i imagine you'll have them rather more. And you may just be more ticked at all, too.

	04-08-2004 00:10									#95
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Actually you think you'd be more use to it by now.

	04-08-2004 00:16									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Considering the massive dominance of English throughout the US, I don't really get worked up over some barrios and "Little Saigons" doing their thing. Here in San Diego, there are enough Vietnamese that they even have their own ARVN Veteran's club, kind of like a VFW post.

actually QOTM and I once went to a Chinese(!) restaurant here in NoVa, and it was taken up by a private party of what appeared to be ARVN OFFICERS (not enlistees - San Diego is so low class by comparison ) We also have an entire shopping center thats Viet Namese businesses, and with a giant SOUTH Viet Namese flag flying above it.

One businessman had the temerity to put up a flag of the current govt. I dont think he was in the hospital all that long.

Oh, and one local school put up flags of the countries kids at the school came from. Including a South Viet Namese flag, natch. The VN embassy was NOT pleased.

So, yeah, Im cool with enclaves. Where folks do their thing, till they learn English. Im not cool with an enclave thats 1000 miles east west and a couple of hundred miles north south. Which I agree with you and Boris, is unlikely.

	04-08-2004 00:51									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Boris, I guess so.. and in here for example, it's difficult to fall into the trap of never having to learn. We don't have ethnic places to live.. you can't live in a place that is mostly inhabitated by your country men, simply because they don't exist. So what ever language that you speak, you will most likely be pretty lonely with it. So you have to learn. And I congratulate our few immigrants, they do so. They really do learn, and quite fast too. MOst of them would speak english, and you can get by in here with english. Most anyone speaks english in here, it's not a problem. But they take the effort to learn the language you don't need anywhere else, and that's kind of cool. Showing that effort.

Actually, If you go to some mainly swedish speaking towns like Tammisaari, Karjaa etc. The situation is similar to the one described in San Jose. Finnish is usually the 3rd language in the restaurants. 1. Turkish/Kurdish/Arabic/Chinese, 2. Swedish, 3. Finnish the situation is similar in Turku for example with 1. Turkish/Kurdish/Arabic, 2. Turku dialect, 3. proper Finnish

	04-08-2004 01:04									#98
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laurentius, yeah but they aren't really Finland anymore.. they're Little Sweden.

	04-08-2004 01:15									#99
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Well, I've seen places in Turkey were the languages were German, Russian, English, Turkish.

	04-08-2004 01:16									#100
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Oh, and a restaurant where they're Swedish, English, Turkish.

	04-08-2004 01:16									#101
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It took you five times to figure out that they spoke spanish? Man, they must need some spanish lessons.

smartass


I'm sure Tia knew the person was speaking Spanish but she made five attempts to get them to understand her English before deciding to revert to Spanish.

	04-08-2004 01:19									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Everyone will, once in a while, come across someone with whom contact is aggravating due to this,

I think if you can correct Tiamat on 'per say' should be 'per se', I'll slip in an 'aggravate' does not mean irritate, it means to worsen, or increase the gravity of (as in a penalty or burden).

Unless of course you're being colloquial.

In any case the whole 'official English' thing strikes me as being a waste of time- demographically, Spanish speakers are going to win out.

Give in gracefully, and be a bilingual country. It'll be good for business, and you can understood the Honduran house cleaner when she be dissin' you, and the Guatemalan pool boy when he makes eyes at your neighbour.

Does anyone go around pulling up Cajuns and Amish on their not quite Received Pronunciation English?

How about pronunciation classes for Boston, and an attempt to stop certain people south of the Mason-Dixon line making monosyllabic English words sound trisyllabic?

How about getting Americans to say 'I will write to you' or 'I will write a letter to you' instead of 'I will write you' or worse, as a request, 'Write me!'.

I thought they had the equivalent of Canadian language immersion classes in the U.S. anyway- I remember my friends in B.C. telling me about a government sponsored course in Ottawa that they went on where you learn French (if you're Anglophone) .

Although in Vancouver, Cantonese might have been of more use.

	04-08-2004 01:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Give in gracefully, and be a bilingual country.

english and Viet Namese, I hope. If not English and Yiddish

Write me when you get a chance.

	04-08-2004 01:43									#104
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark english and Viet Namese, I hope. If not English and Yiddish Write me when you get a chance.

Ah, Yiddish.


That well known hybrid language. I have recently bought a c.d. of excerpts from transcription discs from defunct Yiddish radio stations in the U.S., replete with hilarious ad breaks for gefilte fish and kosher meats, and with the most wonderful harmonizing.

Songs about 'Levin and his flying machine' and with 'Yiddish' swing (big band swing with what sounds like Turkish jazz influenced clarinet over the top).

http://www.yiddishradioproject.org/store/

I'm always grateful to the influence of Yiddish on American English- I think it lends a vigour and an extra layer of depth to modern American English.

	04-08-2004 01:49									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You mean, "per se?" .

I guess her Latin isnt very good. Odd, considering how many Latinos there are where she lives, eh what?

	04-08-2004 01:51									#106
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Songs about 'Levin and his flying machine' and with 'Yiddish' swing (big band swing with what sounds like Turkish jazz influenced clarinet over the top).

Klezmer? Or big band influenced klezmer? (Klezmer is said to be influenced by Roma music)

	04-08-2004 01:51									#107
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Is there a big difference between spanish and portugese as a language? It always surprises me that.

	04-08-2004 01:54									#108
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I guess her Latin isnt very good. Odd, considering how many Latinos there are where she lives, eh what?

She should ask Dan Quayle to help her brush up.

	04-08-2004 01:55									#109
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I think if you can correct Tiamat on 'per say' should be 'per se', I'll slip in an 'aggravate' does not mean irritate, it means to worsen, or increase the gravity of (as in a penalty or burden).

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=aggravate

"2. To rouse to exasperation or anger; provoke. See Synonyms at annoy."

	04-08-2004 01:58									#110
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quote: Is there a big difference between spanish and portugese as a language? It always surprises me that.

They're both derivitives of Latin (like French and Italian, as well as other Iberian languages like Catalan).

	04-08-2004 01:59									#111
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And bilingualism.

We might as well all learn Spanish since the proportion of Spanish speakers is only going to increase in this country.

	04-08-2004 02:04									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And bilingualism. We might as well all learn Spanish since the proportion of Spanish speakers is only going to increase in this country.

Americans should learn more foreign languages. I dont think we should necessarily all learn Spanish, as most Spanish speaking immigrants will learn English, eventually.

	04-08-2004 02:06									#113
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom In any case the whole 'official English' thing strikes me as being a waste of time- demographically, Spanish speakers are going to win out.

Given that there are hundreds of millions of people from non-Spanish speaking countries whod love to come here, I hardly see how its inevitable if we dont want it to be.

	04-08-2004 02:09									#114
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Geography.

	04-08-2004 02:12									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Geography.

we've been sitting here for 200 hundred years. Lots of countries dont pick up the language of their neighbors via immigration - in fact are there any that HAVE? I think the implicit argument is DEMOGRAPHY, and we can trump that by changing immigration policy to favor immigrants from non-Spanish speaking countries - IF that were to become an issue, but I dont think it will, since Spanish speakers are as quick to learn English as other immigrants.

	04-08-2004 02:22									#116
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So how are we going to stop Latin Americans from coming into this country? Put our army on the border?

In any case, I happen to believe immigration barriers to be immoral.

	04-08-2004 02:23									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=aggravate "2. To rouse to exasperation or anger; provoke. See Synonyms at annoy."

Well, I suppose I should make allowances for colloquial American English.


'4. To exasperate; to provoke; to irritate. [Colloq.]

If both were to aggravate her parents, as my brother and sister do mine. --Richardson (Clarissa). '

http://www.wordiq.com/dictionary/Aggravate

'Using aggravate to mean annoy is considered acceptable by 68 percent of the American Heritage Dictionary's usage panel (especially in speech and informal writing). However, for formal writing, some writers and editors advocate substituting other words for this meaning. There are many to choose from.'

http://grcpublishing.grc.nasa.gov/W...hive/WEEK30.CFM




Right back atcha!


'Given that there are hundreds of millions of people from non-Spanish speaking countries whod love to come here, I hardly see how its inevitable if we dont want it to be.'

l.o.t.m.

That 'we' sounds a tad exclusivist and proscriptive.

A higher birthrate amongst people from Spanish speaking communities and backgrounds is what I'm getting at. And I don't foresee Nuer or Mon immigrants outstripping the number of Spanish speaking American born citizens any time soon.

	04-08-2004 02:28									#118
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Lots of countries dont pick up the language of their neighbors via immigration - in fact are there any that HAVE?

England?


Used to be a country which spoke a Celtic language. Thanks to immigration it turned into a country speaking a variety of Germanic dialects, and in the north east has a higher preponderance of words from Norse thanks to immigration from the Vikings.

In any case, Spanish was spoken in California and Texas long before English, similarly French in Louisiana.

Who assimilates to whom and why?

	04-08-2004 02:31									#119
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom England? Used to be a country which spoke a Celtic language. Thanks to immigration it turned into a country speaking a variety of Germanic dialects, and in the north east has a higher preponderance of words from Norse thanks to immigration from the Vikings. In any case, Spanish was spoken in California and Texas long before English, similarly French in Louisiana. Who assimilates to whom and why?

All above example involve military conquest, with immigration as a follow up, though I'll admit in the case of the Germanic movement into England SOME immigration preceded conquest. Ditto your example from North America.

Any examples of a country adopting a neighbors language from migration ALONE, with no conquest?

	04-08-2004 02:36									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo So how are we going to stop Latin Americans from coming into this country? Put our army on the border? In any case, I happen to believe immigration barriers to be immoral.

Well, if we had no immigration barriers at all we would certain NOT become a mainly Spanish speaking country, since the number of Indians, Chinese, Bengalis, Africans etc would soon drive the wage level down to the point where this country would not be attractive to most Latin Americans.

And surely you dont think that current barriers have NO impact?? Presumably a tighter limit would require stronger barriers, but not infinitely strong barriers. We're NOT talking about ending Spanish speaking migration, but limiting it - and not by much if we are also INCREASING immigration from elsewhere.

Not that I think any of the above is very likely, for the reasons ive already mentioned. Once again people, hispanics in the US learn English, at the same rate across generations as other immigrants.

Why is it that everyone from antiimmigrant paleocons to pro multicultural anarchists cant seem to get this?