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Last Conformist
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of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Sadly, many Americans seem to think it's perfectly okay that, when abroad, they walk up to people and start speaking in English. If we expect people to speak English here, then why shouldn't we be expected to speak the vernacular of a country when traveling there? |
Well, in much of Europe, it's completely reasonable to expect that people will understand English - the simple fact is that they do. We ridicule my father because he speaks bad English; that he can usually make himself understood with English monoglots is not enough.
Last edited by Last Conformist on 03-08-2004 at 22:26
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You mean, "per se?"
The "freaking" moron would be correct, as nobody has to speak English. As che noted, we have the Constitution to consider, and people can speak whatever damned language they choose.
If you don't like people speaking in Spanish, then don't speak to them. If you don't like employers hiring people who don't speak English well, complain to the companies or stop patronizing them. But please stop the nonsense that people are obligated to speak English in the U.S., because that's simply not the case. |
While I agree with you and others in that Americans need to learn to live with the reality that many parts of our country is bilingual, to be fair, Tiamat is not angry that she cannot CHOOSE to speak with people who do not speak Spanish -- the problem that she claims she experiences, is when she does not have a choice, when she needs to rely on a clerk or whomever for a particular service.
How realistic would it be for her to boycott businesses in Texas, a state in which bilingualism is more prevalent, than say, Iowa?
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
If they pay taxes, don't commit crimes, and contribute to the economy, I don't give a flying **** if their languages of choice are Swahili and Hmong. 
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If some of them speak swahili, and some speak hmong, etc thats fine. Since sooner or later most will learn English. The development of an entire region with a different language and culture within a larger democratic polity presents real problems to that polity, as our neighbors to the north have found out. Switzerlands are rare in this world, unfortunately (probably because the circumstance of Switzerland - an island of Protestantism against a Catholic sea - and the libertarian governing style - are rare)
You may be comfortable with that result, or you may (like me) think such a result unlikely, but to mock the concerns, expressed even by prominent political scientists, as nothng but the ravings of rednecks, seriously misreads the issue.
Of course at least this means you think the establishment of democracy in Iraq will probably not be significantly impacted by the linguistic fault lines between Arabs and Kurds.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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You have to send a message to people who don't want to learn. IN here, we have a weird language that is difficult to learn. So we have these immigrants, but they speak our language. Not very good all of them, but you know, they get by, and they do get your orders correct. And they have to try hard, this is a weird language to learn too. But what we do here, we be racists on you, like real haters if you don't speak us. THat's right, we hate you. When you learn and try our language, we laugh at you for having funny accent and imitate it and make you cry for it. Then you learn a bit more, and that's when you are more accepted and we don't necessarily burn down your business and drag you in a rope attached to a car.
It works.
It's funny though.. I talked abou tthe same problem in here when I got back out of the US this summer.. It was weird to me, that yes, in McDonalds, they didn't understand english. They didn't understand english, that simple. I wanted a bigmac meal. Trust me, my accent is not that bad, to be an excuse not to understand. I hardly even have an accent at all. I can damn well order a bicmac meal and get it. But no... You'd think, that you can get a bigmac meal, because bigmac is like a brand, it's not a real word either. YOu'd think it wouldn't be hard to understand. I mean you go to Madagascar and talk to the first person 'big mac?' and they know what you're talking about. Except the people in McDoanlds didn't. I even point the board and say 'number two, big mac meal' and show with my fingers '2'. NO! I mean how hard can it be. At this point I was frustrated even. How the hell can't she know what I want, she could talk mars and still should realise what I want. Well finally I got what I want. Then there's a guy who comes to load up my tray and says 'daddy'. I was like wtf?.. 'daddy?' and then I figured out he treis to say 'that's it?'.. then why the hell doesn't he just say so!? Or even close to that's it? it was DADDY. How the hell are you supposed to understand that ****.
And in every motel, the cleaning ladies don't speak english. It's not a problem, you rarely need to really talk to them, but once we needed to know where the breakfast is because they had a huge sign they have free breakfast for customers, so we wanted that, and she wouldn't understand.. breakfast? Sorry no ingle. Fortunately one of my friends did speak spanish too, which made him a god.
It's not huge, but you know in some place it can be a sort of a problem. I mean it's really difficult to get by, because it seems like the people who don't speak spanish also have difficulties speaking the international sign language too.
But still.. I don't think they should be required to speak english. Not unless they want citizenship. It's their own problem. It's the fault of McDonalds and the likes that hire people who don't speak english. Of course we all know why that is, but we should point the finger at their direction more. I mean, I'd like to live in Japan for example for few years but shiit I can't learn that language!
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
While I agree with you and others in that Americans need to learn to live with the reality that many parts of our country is bilingual, to be fair, Tiamat is not angry that she cannot CHOOSE to speak with people who do not speak Spanish -- the problem that she claims she experiences, is when she does not have a choice, when she needs to rely on a clerk or whomever for a particular service.
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As MTG noted, this is a real stretch on reality. I sincerely doubt that Tiamat has no alternative but to patronize Spanish-only businesses.
This is what bugs me about rants against non-English speakers in the U.S. It's simply not an epidemic. Everyone will, once in a while, come across someone with whom contact is aggravating due to this, but this is overwhelmingly not the norm, even in the areas where Spanish is widely spoken. People like to take isolated incidents and blow them out of proportion. But really, how often is it problem enough that it causes people disruption? Once a week? Once a month? Big deal.
America's English-speaking majority is still quite, quite safe from overthrow by other languages.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
You may be comfortable with that result, or you may (like me) think such a result unlikely, but to mock the concerns, expressed even by prominent political scientists, as nothng but the ravings of rednecks, seriously misreads the issue.
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Considering the massive dominance of English throughout the US, I don't really get worked up over some barrios and "Little Saigons" doing their thing. Here in San Diego, there are enough Vietnamese that they even have their own ARVN Veteran's club, kind of like a VFW post.
quote:
Of course at least this means you think the establishment of democracy in Iraq will probably not be significantly impacted by the linguistic fault lines between Arabs and Kurds. |
 Gee, I didn't realize we were talking about Spanish speakers and Tiamat getting crappy service at a Mickey D's in IRAQ. 
But now that you mention it, I don't think language issues between Kurds and Arabs will be in the top ten issues affecting the establishment of stable democracy in Iraq, no.
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03-08-2004 22:20
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