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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Like the United States with California and Texas.
There is a reason for accepting the inevitability of a bilingual Spanish-English America- not only is Spanish spoken in various states in America, but the culture is part of 'America' too.
Another reason is Mexico- that country with Spanish speakers in across the border.
A country whose capital city is topping 20 000 000 inhabitants, and through whom Spanish speakers from, ah, more disadvantaged countries can get to the United States.
If you want fewer Spanish speaking immigrants influence American foreign policy. And the employment habits of American companies and politicians. |
1. Requiring employers to check for proof of legal residencyis already part of immigration policy in the US.
2. US Foreign policy, from loan guarantees to Mexico, to trade policy with the Carib and Central America, to the 94 intervention in Haiti is clearly influenced by migration concerns, IMHO.
3. Spanish is spoken in various states - including the one I live in. But there are hispanics all over this country who are learning english - and IIUC there are plenty of 2nd and 3rd generation hispanics who hardly speak any Spanish
4. Culture being absorbed - you mean like we all eat tacos? well yeah, and we all eat pizza and bagels, but we Italian and Yiddish arent going to become widespread languages any time soon.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:33
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quote:
Well, if we had no immigration barriers at all we would certain NOT become a mainly Spanish speaking country, since the number of Indians, Chinese, Bengalis, Africans etc would soon drive the wage level down to the point where this country would not be attractive to most Latin Americans. |
There is a small matter of travelling halfway around the world. Besides, I wasn't talking about what would happen without immigration barriers (since clearly that's not going to happen in a long time).
quote:
And surely you dont think that current barriers have NO impact?? |
The point is that there's a whole lot of illegal immigration. It's not easy to stop immigration, particularly across a land border.
quote:
Once again people, hispanics in the US learn English, at the same rate across generations as other immigrants.
Why is it that everyone from antiimmigrant paleocons to pro multicultural anarchists cant seem to get this |
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Although, there are certain populations that learn English faster than others, namely those without large enclaves to fall back on. The key point is that lots hispanic immigration is going to happen, unless we insanely authoritarian. And another key point is that hispanics tend to be relatively poor and Catholic, so spit out a lot of kids.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
I don't necessarily disagree with that. Although, there are certain populations that learn English faster than others, namely those without large enclaves to fall back on. The key point is that lots hispanic immigration is going to happen, unless we insanely authoritarian. And another key point is that hispanics tend to be relatively poor and Catholic, so spit out a lot of kids. |
there will certainly be lots of immigration. Maybe less than now, but maybe not. But theyll learn english despite the enclaves. And most immigrant groups historically were poor and had high birth rates (points to the huge families all my grandparents were part of)
Enclaves, mass immigration, poor, huge families. Turn back 100 years and youre on the Lower East side, with Jews and Italians. Nothing new here.
And IIUC, third generation hispanics are BY NO MEANS all poor.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Requiring employers to check for proof of legal residencyis already part of immigration policy in the US.
2. US Foreign policy, from loan guarantees to Mexico, to trade policy with the Carib and Central America, to the 94 intervention in Haiti is clearly influenced by migration concerns, IMHO.
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There's policy and the law, and what actually happens.
Let’s take a look at California’s not too distant history with regard to the employment of Spanish speakers of Mexican descent, or recent Mexican immigrants.
In 1970, two and a quarter million Mexican-Americans lived in California, and at the time, 90 000 crossed the border with passes to look for work.
Only relatively recently had they formed agricultural unions to improve the working practices and conditions which they were subject to.
Norman Lewis, in the Sunday Times dated 1st February, 1970, wrote:
‘Poverty in the richest state in the richest land is more abject than anything to be seen, in, say, Northern Europe. A grape picker works 82 days in a year, and the average migrant’s income is.... less than half the amount a U.S. family requires to live above the poverty line. Until recently some workers were kept behind barbed wire...
U.S. citizens of Mexican origin are a very much depressed minority... Eighty per cent of them are housed in slums. Their children average two years less at school than the children of Negroes and four years less than the children of whites, and they are still punished for speaking Spanish within earshot of their teachers...
Later they are likely to find that, whatever their scholastic achievements, only menial employment will be offered them....
The picture of exploitation on the Victorian model is completed by the presence of child labour. When I was in Delano, last November, the local paper, the Fresno Bee, reported the case of Teresa Arellano, a girl of eight, who worked a 70 hour week on a grape ranch... by my own experience the spectacle of young children at work in conditions which are arduous and even dangerous for an adult is commonplace indeed...
When the Guimarra Vineyards-largest of the growers- was tried and convicted on nearly forty violations of child labour and health laws, it was fined a total of U.S. $ 1,000 by the Kern County Superior Court- and the fine was suspended.
(Cesar Chavez on the conditions of grape picking)
‘It’s degrading. Dehumanizing. After an hour or two everybody gets in such a mess you can’t tell a man from a woman.’
It is rare in the fields for proper drinking water to be available, or any form of latrine provided. More seriously, in recent years growers have taken to the use of toxic sprays that have caused innumerable cases of severe illness and some deaths. Workers are housed in compounds on company property which members of Chavez’s organization are frequently prevented from inspecting, and are said, at worse, to resemble concentration camps.’
Referring to another investigation, the report in the Sunday Times had this to say:
‘Of nearly 800 workers interviewed, practically all showed signs of poisoning, and 163 reported five or more of the following symptoms:
vomiting, abnormal fatigue, abnormal perspiration, difficulty in breathing, loss of fingernails, loss of hair, itching in the ears, nose bleeds, swollen hands and feet, and diarrhoea.
The first field worker I spoke to in Delano was a cook in one of the immigrant camps- I noticed that the man’s hands looked like a leper’s at the stage just before the fingers drop off.’
(The cook explained he had been out in the fields when an aeroplane sprayed the vineyards, but the spray wasn’t vaporizing properly and fell in droplets).’
In any case, the worker would not have been able to tell what pesticide fell on him, because there were court orders (!) forbidding the agricultural commissioner from revealing the composition of some of the pesticides used.
When the grape pickers went on strike, the then governor, Ronald Reagan, called the strike ‘immoral’ and an ‘attempted blackmail of free society’.
'you mean like we all eat tacos? '
And no, by culture, I don't mean just tacos. If I had meant only cuisine, I would have said so.
And please, don't get me started on the sorry history of U.S. foreign policy and intervention in Central and South America.
Even recently, from Guatemala in the 50s to Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 70s and 80s, lawful migration was the least of their concerns- else why prop up brutal regimes that cause people to flee their homelands in thousands?
Oh wait, I'm getting something- a cheap labour pool, scared of immigration, that'll work for peanuts in atrocious conditions.
Now that sounds familiar.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
It ain't 1970, thanks to Ceaser Chavez, who, by the way, spoke English. |
No sheet?
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/poli...avez010107.html
So does Linda 'What illegal?' Chavez. 
'While much remains to be done in this area, we have largely ignored the need to reduce demand for illegals at the same time. This reduction in demand itself has two parts, related to the two forces which draw people to immigrate illegally: jobs and family.
The first magnet is jobs. Until 1986, federal law explicitly permitted employers to hire illegal aliens. In that year, Congress banned the employment of illegals as part of a package that also included amnesty for nearly 3 million illegal aliens already here.
Unfortunately, the ban on jobs for illegals has been poorly enforced. To begin with, Congress pulled its punches in 1986 by not instructing the Immigration and Naturalization Service to develop a verification system enabling employers to quickly check whether a new hire had the right to work in the U.S. It wasn't until 10 years later that Congress required the start of even pilot verification programs.
Even without such a tool, the INS has labored to enforce the law. And despite all the money thrown at the INS in recent years, Congress has refused to increase funding for worksite enforcement, so that there are now the equivalent of only 300 full-time INS agents nationwide trying to enforce the ban on hiring illegals.
What's more, even when the INS does try to stop the employment of illegals, Congress reacts with outrage and forces it to stop. For instance, in 1998, INS raids in Georgia caused the illegal workers picking Vidalia onions to flee. By the end of the week, both of the state's senators and three representatives sent a scathing letter to Attorney General Reno protesting the "lack of regard for farmers" by the INS. And when, in response, it developed a kinder, gentler enforcement tactic, focused initially on meatpacking plants in Nebraska, the political uproar was again so great that the INS backed off.
In fact, about a year ago Robert Bach, then a top INS official, admitted that the law was no longer being enforced: "It is just the market at work, drawing people to jobs, and the INS has chosen to concentrate its actions on aliens who are a danger to the community." '
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/msk03-21-01.html
Cesar 'Yanqui' Chavez:
'Chavez began school at age 7, but he found it difficult because his family spoke only Spanish. Chavez preferred to learn from his uncles and grandparents, who would read to him in Spanish. '
http://www.incwell.com/Biographies/Chavez.html
'He did not like school as a child, probably because he spoke only Spanish at home. The teachers were mostly Anglo and only spoke English. Spanish was forbidden in school. He remembers being punished with a ruler to his knuckles for violating the rule. He also remembers that some schools were segregated and he felt that in the integrated schools he was like a monkey in a cage. He remembers having to listen to a lot of racist remarks. He remembers seeing signs that read whites only. He and his brother, Richard, attended thirtyseven schools. He felt that education had nothing to do with his farm worker/migrant way of life. In 1942 he graduated from the eighth grade. '
http://www.lasculturas.com/aa/bio/bioCesarChavez.php
Hmm, sounds like he spoke Spanish too.
'According to projections that assume racial and ethnic groups will not intermarry, the Hispanic population will be 24 percent of the overall population in 2050 (currently 13 percent), the Asian population will be nine percent (currently 4 percent) and the black population will continue to be 12 percent. Less than a third of all minorities will be black in 2050.'
http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/immi...onupdate02.html
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