04-08-2004 08:15									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio I've got the same problem here ALL pizzarias in town are owned by these people from some middle east country, and it's very tough to get an order correct... Usually we (me and my friends) orders 3 pizzas, so the call goes like this: We'd like to order 3 pizzas... on the first pizza the following ingridients should be on blah blah bla... on the second pizza blah blah blah... and the last pizza blah blah blah The response: Ok, and what would you like on the second pizza, thereby indicating that everything should be put on the first pizza (not even wondering why we would have 3 times pepperoni on the first pizza )I want to know if you got the 3 pizzas? If I was in control of the laws, I would defently require all immigrants to take a test after a few years (once after x years, again after x+2 years, and at last after x+4 years)... the first test is just to see if they can communicate on basic level (in danish of course), and then it gets more advanced later... of course it should be possible to take a test earlier than usual... If you fail any of these tests, you should be kicked out of this country (unless you have a REALLY good reason why not) You need to have passed the 3rd test to be able to have a service job (as taking orders etc) And this rule should be applied to ALL immigrants... I've seen too many families where the man can communicate on basis level, while the wife don't know any danish words

	04-08-2004 08:15									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I support mexicans speaking Spanish in the U.S. You forget Tia, we are living in Mexican territories. We stole their land from them. I live in Las Vegas- formerly Mexican territory. You live in Texas, also mexican territory.

And the Mexicans stole it from Spain, who stole it from the American Indians. Boohoo.

	04-08-2004 08:18									#153
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I live in Tennessee and I never learned to speak Cherokee...

That is because the Cherokee were from SC and N.E. Georgia.
My G.G. Grandmother was Cherokee w/ some Creek.

	04-08-2004 08:20									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Verto And the Mexicans stole it from Spain, who stole it from the American Indians. Boohoo.

And the Aztecs mostly stold it from someone else.

	04-08-2004 08:21									#155
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Yes. Point being, no one cares about the losers.

	04-08-2004 08:22									#156
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The Cherokee also initially inhabited the Cumberland basin of Tennessee. Chattanooga was originally a Cherokee village.

	04-08-2004 08:25									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sadly, many Americans seem to think it's perfectly okay that, when abroad, they walk up to people and start speaking in English. If we expect people to speak English here, then why shouldn't we be expected to speak the vernacular of a country when traveling there?

this isn't just americans.

The other day I had to try to explain to french people where the ice machine was. I took spanish in school. But not French. I had no idea how to communicate where the ice machine was. Many tourist do not know how to speak English.

	04-08-2004 08:27									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The Cherokee also initially inhabited the Cumberland basin of Tennessee. Chattanooga was originally a Cherokee village.

good point. perhaps I should learn how to speak southern paiute where I live.

They definately have rights to this land. Sure the anasazi were here a long time ago. But they went extinct or something. Perhaps drought caused them to break apart. They cannot lay claim to this land.

	04-08-2004 08:29									#159
	Re: Re: Re: Re: English! English! When did America stop speaking English? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are you advocating a law requiring the ability to speak English as a term of employment? Anyway, Texas has always had large areas of Spanish speaking people. There are many villages there that are Spanish only, from before the time the Texans stole the land from Mexico. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the Texan natives be allowed to speak their own lanugage, just because they're overwhelmed by Anglo-immigrants.

We did not steal it, we just shot the shlt out of them and took it.
In the real world, when Mexico free it self from Spain, they took for granite that all of the formal Spanish terr. now belong to Mexico, boy were they wrong. The white man was here and he wanted everything north of the Rio Grande. Plus Mexico did not come up here and settle the entire area that did belong to Spain.

	04-08-2004 08:31									#160
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Diss, I don't think that was the point Boris made.. I think he made the opposite point with that example. Saying 'Americans don't speak the languages they travel to' is absurd argument. Of course they don't speak all the languages they go to. And I think that was the point, no one even expects that. So, expecting every person in the US would speak english is kind of also not very realistic.

	04-08-2004 08:36									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes. Point being, no one cares about the losers.

Yeah.

The Last of the Mohicans (the newer version) shows this happening.


They talk about it at the Indian camp. The elder chief tells about how the coming of the white man has been an issue for some time now, and how they should deal with it.


Later, at the end of the movie, the Last Mohican has the discussion about how his time is over. That's they way it has been and that's how it will be.

This scene is cut out of most versions of the movie, but it's in a special edition. I suspect it wasn't a polictally correct line or maybe they just didn't have time for it.

	04-08-2004 08:50									#162
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yeah but they have them casinos. I mean, if you're an indian, you can have a casino. What do I get? What's in it for me? I don't get **** because I'm a Finn. So how come you are so racist against me? My mom pays federal AND state taxes to your country, so why don't I get like a free happy meal at least? Where's my benefits?

If you have things bad, you can come here as a refugee, and you get some money to set you up. You get therapy. And then, you can get a permit to stay here, or then you gotta move to another place to try again. I come to the US, what do I get? I'm poor too. I get a good frisk and special check up with the security guys. Why? I'm white, but.. right.. I'm a Finn. So what's the special treatment for me about? Looking at me like I was a criminal, asking me questions about my trip.. what's it to you, you paranoid custom man? 'Look into my eyes when you answer'.. fat puerto rican orders giving hoe.. where's my rights? Where's my freedom and where is my benefits? Why my people are hunted like this? What did they ever do to you. At least indians scalped white women of yours. Mexicans? Remember Alamo. What did we do to you, I ask you this much? That's right, we never did anything bad to you.

We drink your sodas, we watch your sitcoms. We go to movie theaters and see your hollywood movies, contributing to the film industry that pays taxes that gives you, american people benefits. We wear your clothes, and we listen to your music. And you don't even know anything about us, who we are, what we do and what we're about! Where's my freedom, where's my benefits? Where's the thanks for me and my countrymen? Instead, you treat me like a criminal when I come there.. 'show me your ID' all the time.. 'sir you're too drunk to come in'.. my money is not good in your eyes.. it's like it's dirty because it's from my hands. Why you treat me like this?

You got all kinds of funds, and especially college funds for minorities.. you got funds for black people, indian people, hell you I've even seen a fund for Ethiopian people. Where's my fund? There IS NO fund for me! I can't come in there, and share the joy of my culture with you. I can't teach you, because you don't want to listen. Because you think I'm a criminal. Evil white man from north europe, must be a criminal. Why would he come in our lands, if he didn't have something evil in his mind..why didn't he stay there, in his own little crappy land we never heard of.. that bastard.. walking in our passport checking lines.. wasting our times..

You come to our country, we don't treat you like a criminal. We treat you like a hero. So you want to see our country? 'Let me show you around'.. 'ohh I want to speak english with you'.. 'Eddie Murphy HAHAHA funny man from America!'. We try to make you feel you had a good time. And the first thing you notice 'there's no starbucks in here. Mom I hate this freaking country, they're so backwards'. Like a real hater from age 6.

And when I come to your country, I'm a criminal? You know, I think your government OWES me a free trip to your country, a fine dinner at the white house, because damn it I'm here, fighting communism and commies, keeping it real and in the front lines of all evil. I'm the guy who wears the shirt with the US flag on it, AND the eagel. I'm the one who gives evil eyes to hippie looking dads money spending wine alcoholic pot smoking youth, protecting capitalism, protecting democracy, fighting against socialism and commies. You gave Osama money to fight the commies. You gave Saddam weapons to fight Iran. What did you ever give to me? I give you all the time, what did you do for me lately?

	04-08-2004 08:52									#163
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Evil white man!

	04-08-2004 08:54									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Diss, I don't think that was the point Boris made...

Yes it was. But you're exaggerating it...it's not about Americans speaking the language, it's about them learning some basics and attempting to speak it when abroad. It's simply incredibly rude to be in a foreign country and walk up to its citizens and jabber away in your own tongue, expecting them to know what you're saying. It's presumptuous to say the least. If you had been in NY and started talking to shop keepers in Finnish, they would probably have treated you pretty poorly. Well, more poorly than usual.

The bottom line is that if you're going to be traveling to a foreign country, pick up a phrase book and learn some stuff before traveling. At the very least, learn how to say "Please," "thank you," "Sorry," and "Do you speak English?" in the native tongue.

	04-08-2004 08:57									#165
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Boris, aah ok. I thought you meant that Americans don't handle the whole language properly. That would be absurd. I think that I made a better point out of your point though . Anyway of course.. I mean, you learn the few words and few phrases naturally.. You don't walk up to a guy and say 'Hi dude!' but try to find what that would be in their language. Yeah I agree.

	04-08-2004 09:10									#166
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You know, considering we require the rest of the world to speak American, I guess it's not too much to ask that immigrants speak it also.

	04-08-2004 09:13									#167
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Ted, That's right. And by association you do that to us too! I don't see no 'come to visit me and marry my sister you good man' messages from you! I figure the money I've spent on the US is AT LEAST worth a roundtrip plane tickets, a fine hotel for the week AND some pocket money. I don't see any invitations in my post. And I'm still fighting for capitalism in here, despite the fact that you think I'm a criminal bastard. I still do that. I just spent my savings to come there, buy stuff and have a good time. I figure I should have gotten at least 5 free lapdances for that..... and guess what? Didn't happen.

I send money INTO your country, and I'm not taking it back. I HELP your economy with my share. You don't help me. Yet, I'm the bad guy? I like your country so much, that I would love to move there. But your government doesn't want that. I'm a crook, I'm a bad guy. I already speak your language and visited many places that even your own countrymen haven't. Yet I'm the bad guy. Don't get me wrong, Indians and Mexicans are the bad guys too, but at least you give them something in return. Where's my return? That's right, there's no return. The hand is reaching but it's never giving back or even saying thank you. Never. And still I'm loyal. I'm like the hero dog who got shot defending its master, and the master thought the dog died and left him in the desert, in the hands of tigers and pumas, but the dog wasn't dead.. he was sad that his master left him like that.. he would have offered his body, so the master could have eaten himself from that, but the master didn't want that. Then, after a week, the dog got some strength back, and walked 6000 miles to the masters house, and got shot by his own master in the dark because 'that bastard's been eating my flowers all summer!' *BOOM*.
And I'm the dog, and the US is the master. And then bunch of kids come to play with my dead body and throw it in the river. Where's the justice, where is the conscious of the US? Bring your hungry, bring your poor.. **** I'm poor! Can I come? I don't think so!

Face it, you don't want me there because you are a racist country. You hate me because of my race and nationality. You don't even want to give me the minimum wage jobs, because the minority organisations would get mad, and I don't got no organisation behind me. Where's the affirmitive action to save Finns? There is no action for that. So this I say to you, we got it the worst in the US, and unless we get some laws around there, it will never change.

US
US policies against Finns

	04-08-2004 09:19									#168
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: English! English! When did America stop speaking English? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Joseph We did not steal it, we just shot the shlt out of them and took it.

So what you're saying is, we stole it from them.

	04-08-2004 09:28									#169
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You know, considering we require the rest of the world to speak American, I guess it's not too much to ask that immigrants speak it also.

In 1898 the German statesman Otto von Bismarck was asked what he believed was the most decisive fact of modern history.

He replied, "The fact that the North Americans speak English."

The United States has 70 per cent of all English mother tongue speakers in the world (this figure also includes slave dialects on the east coast, and Creoles).

No other language has spread around the globe as extensively, or as quickly as English- and the medium we are using to communicate further facilitates this penetration.

Which is not to say that there is any natural or Darwinian lesson to be learned from this- commerical and cultural and military factors all contributed or combined to bring this state of affairs about.

	04-08-2004 09:31									#170
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quote: So what you're saying is, we stole it from them.

Only if every single country which has every existed is considered to have 'stolen' land from some other group.

--

Tia

English may not be the de jure official language, but it definetly is the de facto official language. People in services should learn to speak English in this country. Prior generations did.

	04-08-2004 09:36									#171
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: English! English! When did America stop speaking English? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Joseph We did not steal it, we just shot the shlt out of them and took it.

	04-08-2004 09:42									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat I go through McDonalds and literally have to give my order to the person 5 times and finally I have to revert to speaking spanish Two days later I'm at the Diamond Shamrock (gas station) ... of them can decipher English becuase they are all from Napal.

It's called capitalism. They can do what they want do and if you don't like it then too bad. Don't eat there, don't buy gas from them. Simple.

No one's forcing you to do anything.

Besides, when Americans learn to speak English properly then you can complain about non-English speaking immigrants.

	04-08-2004 09:47									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So what you're saying is, we stole it from them. Only if every single country which has every existed is considered to have 'stolen' land from some other group.

Only if the land was occupied by another group at the time.

	04-08-2004 09:52									#174
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Forget the law. Just complain to the consumers' association to encourage businesses to have decent customer service.

The law can't do anything about language requirements and jobs, EXCEPT for immigration.

	04-08-2004 10:07									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui People in services should learn to speak English in this country. Prior generations did.

What percentage, and how well?

More to the point, which occupations?

	04-08-2004 10:11									#176
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quote: Only if the land was occupied by another group at the time.

Which means... everyone! Except small tribal villages lost to the world.

quote: What percentage, and how well? More to the point, which occupations?

Who knows and who cares? The kids of those generations know how to speak English, which goes to show that the parents stressed learning the language and instilled those values in their children. Their children are the proof of their efforts.

	04-08-2004 10:18									#177
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There's a difference between "should", "can" and "will".

Everyone should go to university.

Not everyone can.

Not everyone will.

	04-08-2004 10:39									#178
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i still suspect imran is using a pakistani to english translator

	04-08-2004 10:42									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Only if the land was occupied by another group at the time. Which means... everyone! Except small tribal villages lost to the world.

You are going to have a hard time establishing that, Imran.