04-08-2004 05:51									#31
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The big question is what would happen to civilization in a society in which work might be optional. Would pople reaslly be happy or would it be some sort of punk nightmare. Personally I think it would be a lot like "A Clockwork Orange".

	04-08-2004 05:53									#32
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quote: Originally posted by alva It's about doing work one would actually enjoy, nothing to do with 'commie crap'

not everyone can do work they enjoy. Yes, even in Star Trek.

Too many people want to do the same thing.

	04-08-2004 05:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The big question is what would happen to civilization in a society in which work might be optional. Would pople reaslly be happy or would it be some sort of punk nightmare. Personally I think it would be a lot like "A Clockwork Orange".

What I want to know, is what happens to all the white trash in the Star Trek universe.

	04-08-2004 06:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What I want to know, is what happens to all the white trash in the Star Trek universe.

They get re-programmed. It's Star Fleet's dirty little secret.

	04-08-2004 07:06									#35
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[TREK GEEK]
The thing you have to remember is that in the Star Trek universe, their economy wasn't a transition from our existing one to their utopian. World War III was the transition. Earth's economy was decimated, though not completely destroyed. With the help of the Vulcans, they managed to switch over economies after a time with greater ease than would otherwise happen. Once the Federation's charter was adopted, other races either emulated Earth's new economy or adjusted their's to be sufficiently compatible.
[\TREK GEEK]

Speaking of which, I have to go to work now.

	04-08-2004 07:09									#36
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you know what would be cool. A star trek movie that actually shows WW3

Sure it wouldn't involve space ships or warp travel. I'd just like to see the war

	04-08-2004 07:32									#37
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Trek is not only a communist society, but it's not even a Utopian one.

	04-08-2004 07:35									#38
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Most things are taken care of with replicators.

Some things, however, cannot be replicated (authentic things, uncommon substances) these things still retain economic value. Hence trade, Ferengi, and gold plated whatchamacallit on DS9. Still, I think the level is to the point of barter for the most part, hence there is no official currency.

quote: Even if you didn't ration by price, you would have to ration by some other means. For instance, the commies try to ration by force.

Good question, first I think in a stable, (mostly) non agricultural society, the population growth at places like Earth would stabilize. Look at the U.S. today vs more agricultural societies. The average U.S. family has 2.5 (maybe fewer these days) kids. The agricultural society prizes cheap labor, hence more kids.

Anywho, if most things are free, would property still serve a purpose aside from being a residence? I mean if my property is my store or farm in an economy where its products are valued, well sure, its worth something. But in ST? I'd think property was something owned by an individual who could give it (and bequeth it) to whomever he/she wishes. If it happens to be worth something, maybe they can barter for some gold-plated whatchamajiggers or other non-replicatable items.

Of course, I don't think that anything happening in Voyager and Enterprise should be considered canon. I'm sure they complicate the picture with their overt inconsistancies.

Bottom line, trek is not communist IMO, its a barter economy where most things are already provided almost freely, and the barter is just for those that cannot be replicated.

	04-08-2004 07:43									#39
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TNG is what complicates things. The other series had barter (not sure about Voyager- I never watched that pile of crap) and currency.

But here's the kicker. TNG also had property. Remember when Picard was back in France picking grapes for making wine in the final episode? This was the same land his family had run for generations.

So obviously land ownership still exists- even in a TNG society with no money.

This means some people like Picards family are going to have more land than the average Joe. Would this not breed discontent and jealousy?

Although TNG counters this by saying humans have evolved and grown to not value material objects, and don't get jealous. Which is a load of bull, but that's the plot device they used.

TOS didn't have currency that I can recall, but they are military. Currency isn't a big concern in the military (except for spending money when you are off duty- not a concern for Kirk- who did what he wanted anyways ) TOS didn't really mention what life was for regular civilians. Although in the movie ST IV: the voyage home, it is shown Kirk has no understanding of currency. So perhaps TOS is also a society without money. The distinction to make here is they did not have replicators in TOS- they did not come until TNG.

But TNG did illustrate what life was like for regular civilians. Remember the episode where they revive the people in cryogenic storage in that space capsule? And the one business man was anxious to get back into the "action". That's the episode that really ruins TNG. Tha'ts the episode where they explain they have no money, and humans evolved to work for the sole puprose of self improvement.

	04-08-2004 07:44									#40
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Economics is the question of the distribution of goods. If energy became for all intents and purposes limitless, people would no longer need to work for subsistance since in theory, everyone could be given all the energy they ever needed. Can energy be made infinite? Not likely, but then, we could find sources of energy vastly more productive and meet everyones basic needs by far.

As for "work", surely an economy would be created around services like barbers, or trainers, educators and artists- stuff that can't simply be replicated with a machine (assuming no vast robot workforce). But manufacturing jobs would nearly vanish, as would jobs in the financial sector (being rich would not longer be worth it- you gain no social advantage or power from it).

The iddle masses would either need to be "opiated", or you can forsee lots of mayhem, since a lot of idle rich hands are still iddle hands.

	04-08-2004 07:48									#41
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but energy is not limitless!

else they wouldn't have the problem of not having enough power to break free from certain graviational fields and tractor beams in various episodes.

The damn Enterprise is always running low on power! Especially in their shields

And as I said before, if the energy is limitless, why mine dilithium crystals?

	04-08-2004 07:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but energy is not limitless! else they wouldn't have the problem of not having enough power to break free from certain graviational fields and tractor beams in various episodes. The damn Enterprise is always running low on power! Especially in their shields And as I said before, if the energy is limitless, why mine dilithium crystals?

The whole "dilithium crystal" stuff is bull. The question is that of a planetary economy and how much energy it takes for say 10 billion people to have all needs met. I am sure we could say that the energy needed to propel a craft of several thousand tons at many multiples of the speed of light is so vast as to be "infinate" for all intents and purposes.

If someone gave you access to a single bank account that contained 1*10^50 dollars- you know what? Obviously that is not infinate, but I doubt you would ever come close to spending even 1% of that, so for all intents and purposes it is infinate.

	04-08-2004 08:06									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident if you have transporters and replicators, it's safe to say you can destory waste completely.

They have a transporter and I think it is at the lab in Livermore now, but it can only tranfer energy right now. Also someone has a tri corder and it can read 4 bio at this time.

	04-08-2004 08:06									#44
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Dissident is on to something. There would still be rationing in many situations for some items, even if the broader economy did not require stringent rationing. This might be because of the limits of our knowledge of physics, for instance, even in ST.

	04-08-2004 08:37									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Dissident is on to something. There would still be rationing in many situations for some items, even if the broader economy did not require stringent rationing. This might be because of the limits of our knowledge of physics, for instance, even in ST.

So? Rationing is not inherently worse than seeing the richest get it if the item is rare, not for the type of stuff Diss sort of mentions. In fact, the better as accumulation of such things would mean too much power in too few hands.

	04-08-2004 08:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Bottom line, trek is not communist IMO, its a barter economy where most things are already provided almost freely, and the barter is just for those that cannot be replicated.

In other words, it's communism.

	04-08-2004 09:19									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Bottom line, trek is not communist IMO, its a barter economy where most things are already provided almost freely, and the barter is just for those that cannot be replicated.

Are you nuts? By any reasonable defination, the Federation is communist.

	04-08-2004 09:24									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, eventually, you would have to ration the space on planet Earth in ever more draconian fashion.

We are talking about Star Trek here, where people can establish colonies where they feel like.

	04-08-2004 10:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger We are talking about Star Trek here, where people can establish colonies where they feel like.

	04-08-2004 10:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But here's the kicker. TNG also had property. Remember when Picard was back in France picking grapes for making wine in the final episode? This was the same land his family had run for generations. So obviously land ownership still exists- even in a TNG society with no money.

Did Picard actually say his family owned this piece of land for generations?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident This means some people like Picards family are going to have more land than the average Joe.

I don't see how you came to this conclusion, either. How do we know that not every family on earth got to use a plot of land?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident The distinction to make here is they did not have replicators in TOS- they did not come until TNG.

AFAIK, they did have replicators in TOS.

	04-08-2004 16:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In other words, it's communism.

The items provided are not provided by the gov't, they are simply insanely cheap. Hence not communism.

	04-08-2004 16:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident not everyone can do work they enjoy. Yes, even in Star Trek. Too many people want to do the same thing.

Why, you just have to be creative.

	04-08-2004 17:22									#53
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quote: The items provided are not provided by the gov't, they are simply insanely cheap. Hence not communism.

Read Marx, and you'll understand.

	04-08-2004 17:36									#54
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quote: The items provided are not provided by the gov't, they are simply insanely cheap. Hence not communism.

And the prices are regulated by...? The government. Planned economics!

Also, energy didn't really become cheap or plentiful. It was just easier to harness. In fact, it was ALWAYS plentiful (take a look at the sun blasting out all that wasted energy). More efficient, bearing in mind, deuterium was still a precious resource, it was need to power the replicators...yes, more efficient. Sewage; not required. Except for the Maylons (sp) who had to handle the nuclear waste. Normal human garbage could be converted into useful substances, but required energy to reform? Energy produced by deuterium = waste.

Then the Maylons want to dump all the waste, being garbagemen, into the void. In fact, it was highly profitable. And unenvironmental.

I think inefficiency was the bane of both democracy and communism, that often leads to abuse of both systems. (Like the ruling party abusing the electoral system over here)

Realised I've been rambling over three different things, but bear with me.

	04-08-2004 19:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Read Marx, and you'll understand.

	04-08-2004 20:36									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: The items provided are not provided by the gov't, they are simply insanely cheap. Hence not communism. And the prices are regulated by...? The government. Planned economics!

I don't know if that's implied anywhere. In some situations in Trek I've heard speak of "public replicators," while in others famlies have discussed "getting a replicator" (ie Picard family in post Borg episode). I don't know who controls their distribution and production. Perhaps a replicator can replicate replicators.

	04-08-2004 20:39									#57
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Imagine if replicators became self-aware and programmed to proliferate?

	04-08-2004 20:44									#58
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I thought this thread was if and how a moneyless society would look like and how it would/could function etc.., not a star-trek analysis...

	04-08-2004 21:11									#59
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quote: I don't know if that's implied anywhere. In some situations in Trek I've heard speak of "public replicators," while in others famlies have discussed "getting a replicator" (ie Picard family in post Borg episode). I don't know who controls their distribution and production. Perhaps a replicator can replicate replicators.

Who provides the energy? "Star Fleet"/ "Federation" etc.

Generally, I think that Star Trek has some sort of salaries, etc. However, you almost never see factories, do you?

and I also agree with alva.

	04-08-2004 21:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Generally, I think that Star Trek has some sort of salaries, etc. However, you almost never see factories, do you?

Who needs factories when you have replicators?

IIRC, there's some reference as to factories being located in orbit in ST4.