04-08-2004 02:02									#1
	Star Trek Economy Tired of ads?

I was chatting in the office (as you do) about economics, and was wondering what would happen if tomorrow, everybody agreed that they would work for free, and would freely offer whatever service they supply.

My company British Airways would probably find like all airlines, that they were fully booked (for free of course), and would have to get loads more planes to cope with the demand.. but would there be enough planes ? would people just stop working all together, and the entire economy would ground to a halt very quickly ?? or after a few months of getting up at 12 and doing nothing all day, would people return to work (or find work they actually enjoyed).

What then of services like waste disposal, sewage treatment .. I find it hard to believe anybody would actually want to work for the joy of it in this industry ?? or would they ??

In the end, I think I came to the conclusion, that people would just start reverting to old habits, and start bartering .. illegal stuff like drugs would still have a value !

So if we are not ready for such an economic model .. will we ever be ?? will there be a level of technological progress which would allow this system ?? or is it as likey as most of the other stuff in Star Trek like teleportation, warp drive and of course time travel .... plain impossible.

	04-08-2004 02:15									#2
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Star-trek stuff will happen when manufacturing of everything quickly doesn't require an assembly line, and is generally very cheap. Also, energy is very cheap.

	04-08-2004 02:23									#3
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But what about sewage systems ? people will still need to clean the toilets ?? or are we saying we would have to reach a level of technology which means all meanial tasks are delt with automatically ?

	04-08-2004 02:42									#4
	Re: Star Trek Economy Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy My company British Airways would probably find like all airlines, that they were fully booked (for free of course), and would have to get loads more planes to cope with the demand..

Why would they buy more planes? Are you saying that we decide to produce infinite goods and services even though we know that we don't have the technology to do so?

	04-08-2004 03:11									#5
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quote: But what about sewage systems ? people will still need to clean the toilets ?? or are we saying we would have to reach a level of technology which means all meanial tasks are delt with automatically ?

Yeah, pretty much. It's not as far as you think it is, though.

	04-08-2004 03:19									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Even if you didn't ration by price, you would have to ration by some other means. For instance, the commies try to ration by force.

Even when everybody is showered with material and service goods through automation, we will have to work some to pay the bills. Otherwise, the system wouldn't work. We wouldn't be able to decide who gets particular goods and who doesn't, or indeed which products should be provided.

Over the last century, the free industrialized world has decreased its working days in a week by about 1.5. Sometime in the future, we will move to shorter work weeks, with it taking an increasingly long time to remove each day (i.e., moving from 6 days to 5 days is a 17% reduction, but 5 days to 4 days is a 25% reduction, and so on).

	04-08-2004 03:21									#7
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quote: Even when everybody is showered with material and service goods through automation, we will have to work some to pay the bills. Otherwise, the system wouldn't work. We wouldn't be able to decide who gets the particular goods and who doesn't in a self-sustaining manner.

"to pay the bills"?

What bills? With plentiful energy, there is no need for bills.

	04-08-2004 03:23									#8
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You would still have to ration, because it's not an unlimited resource. As the energy becomes more plentiful, it will become cheaper, of course. And when things become cheaper, you have to work less to pay the bills, etc.

	04-08-2004 03:25									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The replicator (which probably separated the waste) made Star Trek's economy stable enough to fashion all the other industries. Most needs and wants on a personal level were taken care of. Thus, what is left?

Transportation - bigger, better, faster is a human desire
Geology, Mining - the thrill of discovery
Artisans - self graditude
Medicine - no level of technology will take the place of the need for health

	04-08-2004 03:26									#10
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Ok, so I'll ration. what's your point? Rationing is only bad when it is a genuine limit on consumption. You can only eat that much and have that many electric appliances in your house.

	04-08-2004 03:28									#11
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I don't think there's any limit from human nature on how many electric appliances in your house. Just look at the **** in Americans' homes.

Remember, in your system, the appliances would be free as well.

	04-08-2004 03:30									#12
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quote: I don't think there's any limit from human nature on how many electric appliances in your house. Remember, in your system, the appliances would be free as well.

So? And yes, I think there is definetly a limit. It's huge, but that doesn't mean that it's infinite.

	04-08-2004 03:32									#13
	Got spare money?

Well, eventually, you would have to ration the space on planet Earth in ever more draconian fashion. As it is now, you're giving out land for free (how that works, I'm not quite sure, but...).

	04-08-2004 03:34									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Or ration the total of humans on earth.

	04-08-2004 03:53									#15
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quote: Well, eventually, you would have to ration the space on planet Earth

We already do that, by severly limiting construction rights.

	04-08-2004 03:54									#16
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And yes, I believe an expansion to space is positive, as well.

	04-08-2004 03:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Over the last century, the free industrialized world has decreased its working days in a week by about 1.5. Sometime in the future, we will move to shorter work weeks, with it taking an increasingly long time to remove each day (i.e., moving from 6 days to 5 days is a 17% reduction, but 5 days to 4 days is a 25% reduction, and so on).

Working days and hours has decreased - we all have more leisure time, but will that continue? It seems to be that we are working more hours a week than 10 or 20 years ago, but still far less than 50 or 100. It may be perception, coupled with the media telling us we are working too hard.

	04-08-2004 04:00									#18
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Oh, no, some people work truly horrible ours today.

My mom for example. 11 hours a day, on many occasions.

EDIT: and no overtime.

Last edited by Az on 04-08-2004 at 04:09

	04-08-2004 04:11									#19
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oh, and nice DanS, DanS.

	04-08-2004 04:23									#20
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TNG economy sucks and is unrealistic.

I think at least in DS9 they actually had money. This was more realistic.

	04-08-2004 04:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy But what about sewage systems ? people will still need to clean the toilets ?? or are we saying we would have to reach a level of technology which means all meanial tasks are delt with automatically ?

if you have transporters and replicators, it's safe to say you can destory waste completely.

	04-08-2004 04:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Even when everybody is showered with material and service goods through automation, we will have to work some to pay the bills. Otherwise, the system wouldn't work. We wouldn't be able to decide who gets the particular goods and who doesn't in a self-sustaining manner. "to pay the bills"? What bills? With plentiful energy, there is no need for bills.

I cannot believe energy is plentiful.

This is proven by the fact that there have been TNG episodes about mining Dilithium crystals. One colony was having difficulty or something like that.

But the point is the crystals still have to be mined. And there is competition for them (Klingongs, Romulans etc.).

Although I suppose once you mine enough dilithium crystals to run the mining equipment, you would be self-sustaining. And the mining operation would be "free" But eventually they will run out of crystals.

	04-08-2004 04:40									#23
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That's because you've got to have competition for resources in any decent movie.

Plus, while recycling is great, you need to expand the amount of material you have in circulation to suit the needs.

Some day, perhaps, we'll be able to build the elements we need, etc. but that's so very very far away.

quote: I cannot believe energy is plentiful.

Sure it is. Just look at the amounts of energy needed for some of the stuff they constantly do in Star Trek, like warp, etc.

Fusion power will certainly be harnessed, and I am sure more and more forms of transforming matter into energy will be understood.

	04-08-2004 05:05									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Even if you didn't ration by price, you would have to ration by some other means. For instance, the commies try to ration by force.

Your talking about an advanced communist society that is really only hypothetical.

	04-08-2004 05:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Working days and hours has decreased - we all have more leisure time, but will that continue? It seems to be that we are working more hours a week than 10 or 20 years ago, but still far less than 50 or 100. It may be perception, coupled with the media telling us we are working too hard.

It depends on where you are,

Average Hours worked per year in 1982, 1992 and 2002 with the US in 1982=100%

USA: 100% 101% 100%
Japan: 116% 109% 99%
Germany: 93% 86% 80%
France: 95% 91% 86%
UK: 96% 96% 94%
Italy: 94% 91% 90%
Canada: 99% 97% 98%

	04-08-2004 05:28									#26
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Bah! I'd rather live in the TOS days where people worked for a living. Rather than that commie crap!

	04-08-2004 05:30									#27
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It's about doing work one would actually enjoy, nothing to do with 'commie crap'

	04-08-2004 05:32									#28
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The Ferengi appealed to me more than the humans in the TNG universe.

	04-08-2004 05:33									#29
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Somehow, that doesn't suprise me.

	04-08-2004 05:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The Ferengi appealed to me more than the humans in the TNG universe.

You'd keep your own Mom locked up at home naked?