04-08-2004 17:54									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That having been a successful military command doesn't say much about your suitability as president.

Successful military commanders generally do well both in elections and in office, with Grant being the sole exception that comes to mind though there have to be others. Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, Eisenhower are good examples of this.

Keep in mind that this doesn't include Kennedy who got his boat sunk, Bush Sr. who got his plane shot down, McCain who got his plane shot down, Bush Jr. whose records were lost in action, or it seems Kerry who shot himself in the a$$ if these stories are to be believed and committed attrocities if you believe him 30 years ago. These guys were all small unit leaders who never were in charge of as many guys as several members of this very forum have been, and none of them had much of an impact on anything beyond the few who served with them and the few who they managed to scare / discomfit on the other side.

	04-08-2004 17:59									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

WHOAH, SOMEONE HAS WRITTEN A NEGATIVE BOOK ABOUT A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

THIS CERTAINLY MERITS A NEWSPOSTING, AT LEAST IF YOU'RE MATT DRUDGE

	04-08-2004 18:01									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Successful military commanders generally do well both in elections and in office, with Grant being the sole exception that comes to mind though there have to be others. Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, Eisenhower are good examples of this.

Washington? Successful military commander? Hardly. At least on the field of battle. He lost as many as he won, if not more.

	04-08-2004 18:24									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nothing more than the typical muckraking election year garbage. Books like this are a dime a dozen. This one is only getting publicity because of Drudge's axe grinding and his own band of ditto-heads.

If Kerry's actions were so bad, you have to wonder why he still has so many of his former comrades ardently supporting him and standing by his side.

	04-08-2004 19:02									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can't find the damn cite about the book now, Mad Monk. I've trawled my history etc but I shall return with it in the next day, I promise

	04-08-2004 19:19									#36
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GePap And this book will have the same effect as all those utterly blatantly partisan books you see out there in the bookstore...0. Maybe closer to absolute 0. I mean, honestly, look at your local bookstore and the current events section- the invective is massive. Anyone who thinks this is anything more than just one more unheard voice in the tumult, is, well, nuts. As for comparisons to Farenheit 911. That film has made 100 milion. at NYC prices, it still means 10 million viewings. I doubt seriously 10 million people will read this crap.

I suppose the key is how much play this book will get in the media, and whether the authors can get any air time.

	04-08-2004 19:23									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I'm not sure what would make for more factual-based reading -- this new book coming in August, or the latest Marvel comic book.

	04-08-2004 19:26									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not sure what would make for more factual-based reading -- this new book coming in August, or the latest Marvel comic book.

Yup, it attacks the Democrats, so therefore it must be false.

	04-08-2004 19:30									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Eh . . . . . .

I'm sure you would disregard any such material that tried to tar and feather a Republican in the same way, Shi.

	04-08-2004 19:54									#40
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GePap And this book will have the same effect as all those As for comparisons to Farenheit 911. That film has made 100 milion. at NYC prices, it still means 10 million viewings. I doubt seriously 10 million people will read this crap.

Well the republicans won't let people forget about it.

	04-08-2004 20:03									#41
	Tired of ads?

quote: Washington? Successful military commander? Hardly. At least on the field of battle. He lost as many as he won, if not more.

Against overwhelming odds. He was a success because he was never routed by the enemy, aborting any chance of revolution. And in the end driving the British out. His attack on Trenton on Christmas was simply genius.

	04-08-2004 20:14									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GePap As for comparisons to Farenheit 911. That film has made 100 milion. at NYC prices, it still means 10 million viewings. I doubt seriously 10 million people will read this crap.

Yes, it's sad that supposedly educated people will rather watch movies than read books, but what can you do?

The point remains.

	04-08-2004 20:16									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by GePap Washington? Successful military commander? Hardly. At least on the field of battle. He lost as many as he won, if not more.

That wasn't the impression at the time -- and that's what counts.

	04-08-2004 20:19									#44
	Re: John Kerry: Unfit For Command Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk http://www.drudgereport.com/ufd.htm Buckle up, kids -- it's gonna be a hell of a ride.

What a funny coincidence that with his heading VVAW and running for Senator 20 years ago, then running in the primaries, that it took them this long to come forward.

Let's see how conservatives who defended Clarence Thomas against 10 year old claims by Anita Hill respond to this one. Undoubtedly, being consistent, they'll take the position that making these sorts of claims (on the record is meaningless as public figure immunity means they can't be sued for defamation) 30-odd years after the fact makes them completely lacking in relevance or credibility.

	04-08-2004 20:24									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean like Fahrenheit 911 was just an unbiased documentary?

To the extent that is showed footage of Bush et all sticking their feet in their mouths, yes, that part is.

To the extent that Moore was grandstanding with the ice cream truck, etc., nope, that's just Moore's editorializing, whether it is based on fact or not.

quote: There's plenty of space for that, and if Kerry's going to run on his war record, we're going to run him through his war record.

Kerry's war record stands and falls with his DD214 and personnel files. A bunch of paid (or "appreciated") folks with an axe to grind making unverifiable claims 30 odd years after the fact is just gutless horseshit, and total hypocrisy in light of the gnashing of teeth about Thomas and Anita Hill, among others.

It does prove the Bush team's desperation, though.

	04-08-2004 20:27									#46
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It'd be more fun (probably more accurate I'm not sure what exact charge Chappaquiddick would fall under) to accuse Ted Kennedy of murder to tar and feather the Kerry campaign.

	04-08-2004 20:29									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Does that mean Michael Moore is part of the Kerry team?

	04-08-2004 20:34									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: What a funny coincidence that with his heading VVAW and running for Senator 20 years ago, then running in the primaries, that it took them this long to come forward.

Do you know where I can do the appropriate research to see if that has or has not happened?

The fact is, lower offices are not scrutinized as closely -- did Bush's war record come up during his gubinatorial run?

	04-08-2004 20:46									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I got the book out of the store I work at prior to its release date. Most of the way through it now, after reading all night. Something interesting on page 186, a statement made by a then PFC (private first class) Ried... "Kerry is a gay ****"

Revealing...

Man, we can't have one of those girlie men as pres!

	04-08-2004 21:33									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So what's a PFC doing hanging out with brown water navy pukes? Let alone having enough contact with a squid officer to even have a clue who he was?

	04-08-2004 21:38									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Do you know where I can do the appropriate research to see if that has or has not happened?

You could probably get ahold of FBI records on the VVAW through a Freedom of Information Act request. Other than that, news archives, and checking the names of the individuals now making charges against Kerry. Their DD214s and Kerry's should be public record as FIA requests as well, so you could verify time and unit of service and some other details.

quote: The fact is, lower offices are not scrutinized as closely -- did Bush's war record come up during his gubinatorial run?

Was it relevant? I'm sure Kerry's war record as a former head of VVAW ticked off a few people in Mass - they do run Republican challengers against those guys, just for fun.

And I find it really hard to believe that the Nixon white house wouldn't use dirt it had to discredit Kerry when he emerged as a leader of VVAW.

	04-08-2004 21:46									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

This is the same group of people that called McCain a collaborator. Move along folks, nothing to believe here.

	04-08-2004 21:59									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I suppose the key is how much play this book will get in the media, and whether the authors can get any air time.

Oh, I expect Fox to give serious coverage, and then CNN and MSNBC be their gutless selves and monkey Fox, finally bringing the equally gutless wonders in the networks, like Tim Russert in on it- but it might get a week's press at most anywhere but Fox News, were it will become gospel.

	04-08-2004 22:02									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Where does the american love for presidents who served in war come from?

I think subconciously we believe that someone who served in war cared enough about the nation that they were willing to offer their life for it.

Insinuates selfless service, willingness to die for our nation, etc.

	04-08-2004 22:27									#55
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk You mean like Fahrenheit 911 was just an unbiased documentary?

I haven't said that Farenheit 911 is an unbiased documentary,

quote: There's plenty of space for that, and if Kerry's going to run on his war record, we're going to run him through his war record.

So, I don't get a chance to view american news program that often any more, but from passed experience I'd like you to point at that 'space of plenty' you're talking about.

	04-08-2004 23:08									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If you listen to the Swiftboat veteran's comments they are not against a Democrat, they are against Kerry. They make the comment that they wish the Democratic party would pick another candidate so they could all go home.

As for poster's comments here that Kerry got a Purple Heart and everything else is just semantics, well there is this unpleasant thing called a "fact". The "fact" is what you wish weren't there but since it is you have to deal with it.

And in this case the fact is that at least one of Kerry's "wounds" that he got the Purple Heart from was self inflicted from incompetant use of a grenade launcher.

Another fact is that Kerry is misrepresenting his millitary service. If he is not then let him fill out a brief two page form to allow the Navy to release his millitary record. He has declined to do so.

Yet another fact is that of the ~18 people who served with him only 2 are supporting him. Given that you get to know someone well when you serve in combat with them I would be inclined to trust the judgement of these people.

And yet another fact is that Kerry came back from Viet Nam and proceeded to lambast the US, the Navy, and the war, while he was still in service. This treason, just in case there was any doubt.

Don't get me wrong, I have no love for President Bush, but I'll be voting AGAINST Kerry.

	04-08-2004 23:13									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk That wasn't the impression at the time -- and that's what counts.

Not to mention the fact that he, er, you know: WON THE WAR!!!

	04-08-2004 23:19									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Big Dave And yet another fact is that Kerry came back from Viet Nam and proceeded to lambast the US, the Navy, and the war, while he was still in service. This treason, just in case there was any doubt.

No it isn't.

Reread the Constitution. Speaking out against the government's waging of a war isn't remotely treasonous, no matter if one is in the military at the time or not. Do you think this is China or something?

And what Kerry said was legitimate, as history has taught us.

	04-08-2004 23:36									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

snip

	04-08-2004 23:50									#60
	Re: Re: John Kerry: Unfit For Command Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What a funny coincidence that with his heading VVAW and running for Senator 20 years ago, then running in the primaries, that it took them this long to come forward. Let's see how conservatives who defended Clarence Thomas against 10 year old claims by Anita Hill respond to this one. Undoubtedly, being consistent, they'll take the position that making these sorts of claims (on the record is meaningless as public figure immunity means they can't be sued for defamation) 30-odd years after the fact makes them completely lacking in relevance or credibility.

We all love your biting sarcasm, MTG.