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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
What they think and what they saw are two different things. |
After 30 years, not necessarily. Consider all the people who claim to have seen a sniper at the grassy knoll, despite the fact that in the 1960s, they made no such claim. Today they firmly believe they did. People are quite capable of convincing themselves of something given enough time, like the Veterans being spit upon when getting off the planes from Vietnam, despite the fact that the planes from Vietnam landed on a military base and no protestors could possibly have ben present.
We do know, however, that at least some of these accusers are willing to invent stories of treason out of wholesale cloth to tar a person few would dispute as a true hero, John McCain. If they're willing to lie and invent stories about McCain, they're willing to do it to Kerry. Thus, they have zero credibility.
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PLATO
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Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
After 30 years, not necessarily. Consider all the people who claim to have seen a sniper at the grassy knoll, despite the fact that in the 1960s, they made no such claim. Today they firmly believe they did. People are quite capable of convincing themselves of something given enough time, like the Veterans being spit upon when getting off the planes from Vietnam, despite the fact that the planes from Vietnam landed on a military base and no protestors could possibly have ben present.
We do know, however, that at least some of these accusers are willing to invent stories of treason out of wholesale cloth to tar a person few would dispute as a true hero, John McCain. If they're willing to lie and invent stories about McCain, they're willing to do it to Kerry. Thus, they have zero credibility. |
While I understand what you are saying. Please recall that one of these people is the actual medic who treated Kerry's wound and he seems to recall the situation quite well. Please also recall that these are men that were under fire with Kerry...a situation that tends to bond people for years and not seperate them over political issues.
I ask you: What do these men have to gain by lying? What does Kerry have to gain by lying?
I must also remind you that eyewitness testimony, regardless of age, is still the most compelling evidence that you can have in an investigation.
Simply saying that time has passed does not make an eyewitness account lack credibility. Having a large number of people disagree with a single persons account does, however, call the single persons credibility into question.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
I must also remind you that eyewitness testimony, regardless of age, is still the most compelling evidence that you can have in an investigation. |
Actually, eyewitness testimony is coming under increasing suspicion as useful evidence, absent corraborating evidence.
quote:
Simply saying that time has passed does not make an eyewitness account lack credibility. Having a large number of people disagree with a single persons account does, however, call the single persons credibility into question. |
I would refer you to the fact that it wasn't one vet up there on the stage with Kerry, but about a dozen. These are men, Republican and Democrat alike, who all vouch for Kerry.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:33
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quote:
Here are the 10 crewmates who served with Kerry in Vietnam. All but Steve Gardner support John Kerry and stood with him as he made his speech to the DNC (except Tom Belodeau who is deceased).
I'll let them speak for themselves, including Steve Gardner. The following are sourced quotes.
PCF-94
Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta. The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."
David Alston
Rev. Alston is from Columbia, SC and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.
"David Alston was the gunner atop Kerry's pilot house. Kerry, he told an audience here, was a compassionate commander. `We were in a lot of firefights,' Alston said. `You learn a lot about people. After a firefight, John would come up to me and he would put his hand on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?' `I didn't know then that I had a man of God on my boat,' Kerry said. `That's probably why I'm here today'." [Orlando Sentinel, 1/31/04]
`Down in the Mekong Delta, we lived together, we fought together, we bled together and we survived together,' said Alston. `Whether we were Democratic or Republican was not the issue,' he said. `The issues at that time were trust, courage, judgment and character.' Alston attached those attributes to Kerry and introduced his friend with no further ceremony." [Providence Journal-Bulletin, 3/23/03]
Alston is the crewmate who gave a speech at the DNC last week. The text is here
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/
Del Sandusky
Mr. Sandusky is from Dunedin, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as the senior enlisted man on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.
"Kerry commanded a Navy `Swift Boat' that patrolled the Mekong delta. His crew recalls Kerry as brainy and extremely aggressive, `a good leader and a bit of a hard-charger,' says Del Sandusky from Elgin, Ill." [Washington Post, 6/2/02]
"Del Sandusky, 58, of Elgin, Ill., and Clearwater, Fla., served under Kerry on a patrol boat in 1969. When another boat hit a mine, Kerry ordered the dead and injured brought on board and the sinking boat towed, six or seven miles, to the Gulf of Tonkin. Because Americans had died on the boat, Kerry, out of loyalty, wouldn't leave it behind for the enemy. `All the boat crew men volunteered to help in anyway we can,' with Kerry's political campaigns, Sandusky said. `Whatever he wants, we'll help him with. Because we believe in him.' " [AP, 12/6/02]
Fred Short
Mr. Short is from North Little Rock, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.
"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.
"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3
3La Ganga, Maria L. "Crewmates Attest to Kerry's Mettle as Wartime Commander." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13). Zoroya, Greg. "Vietnam Crewmates Steady at Kerry's Side." USA Today. 29 July 2004 (p. A4).
Gene Thorson
Mr. Thorson is from Ames, Iowa and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Engineman on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.
In support of this grassroots deployment, 73,000 Iowa veteran households received a mailing in December from Kerry's Vietnam swift boat crewmate Gene Thorsen, of Ames, IA, rallying them to "stand up for John Kerry the same way he stands up for veterans."
He said he knew back then that the skipper of his boat, John Kerry, was bound for high places. Almost 30 years later, Thorson got a call from Kerry asking for political help. Now, he often gives up his weekends to travel with other veterans and campaign with Kerry on his run for president.
By: Matt Neznanski, Staff Writer July 19, 2004
Ames Tribune
"He took care of all of us. He really did," Thorson said.
Des Moines Register
Tom Belodeau is deceased, he served on PCF-94 with Kerry
Kerry was helped by the fact that Belodeau stood beside him and said he had been misquoted."This man was not lying on the ground. This man was more than capable of destroying that boat and everybody on it. Senator Kerry did not give him that opportunity," Belodeau said. He also said that he was not sure whether or not he had hit the attacker.
May 06, 2004 National Review Online
Mike Medeiros
Mr. Medeiros is from San Leandros, California and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.
"He made good decisions, I believe proper decisions," said Mike Medeiros of San Leandro, Calif., who served for four months on Kerry's swift boat in Vietnam. "And the fact that we all returned alive is a good indication that they were the right decisions."Medeiros was reunited with Kerry in 1996, when Republicans were attacking his military record in a heated Senate race. Kerry's crew mates came to set the record straight at the Charlestown Navy Yard, the same place they stood shoulder-to-shoulder on the eve of his nomination acceptance.
ABCNEWS.com July 28, 2004 From AP
PFC-44
Kerry captained this ship from November 1968 to January 1969. This command saw considerably less action
Jim Wasser
Mr. Wasser is from St. Anne, IL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Radarman on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.
Mr. Kerry took command of P.C.F.-44 with a veteran crew headed by Mr. Wasser, a radarman second class. "Always, when there's a new guy on the boat, you check him out," Mr. Wasser said. "It only took me a few days. We knew that we had somebody special that cared for us. We bonded."
Combative and politically conservative, Mr. Wasser, from Kankakee, Ill., had a pair of American flags tattooed on his shoulder and still loathes Jane Fonda.
NYTimes Febuary 24 2004
What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."
2. Braun, Stephen. "Kerry's War Tour Serves as Theme, Target." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13). Brinkley, Douglas. Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War. New York: HarperCollins, 2004. ISBN 0-06-056523-3. Klein, Joe. "The Long War of John Kerry." The New Yorker. 2 December 2002. Kranish, Michael. "John F. Kerry: Candidate in the Making -- Part 2: Heroism, and Growing Concern About War." The Boston Globe. 16 June 2003.
Drew Whitlow
Mr. Whitlow is from Huntsville, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Boatswain Mate on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.
"I figured with the abilities he had, he was going to go high, but I didn't have any idea about him running for president," said Whitlow, 57, wearing a cap decorated with Kerry campaign pins.
Whitlow said he recalled Kerry as a humble seaman when he joined Whitlow's crew as a lieutenant junior grade in 1968.
Kerry told crewmates, "I know you guys don't need me but I sure need you," said Whitlow, who served as a boatswain mate.
"He accepted us for who we were," Whitlow said. "The decisions that he made saved our lives.
"He never shot from the hip when it came to decisions," Whitlow said. "He'd always confront the problems head on."
Whitlow, a Kerry campaign coordinator for veterans in western and southern Arkansas, began campaigning for Kerry in September 2003. In January, Whitlow traveled with Kerry to Iowa and New Hampshire.
The Times Record Fort Smith, Arkansas Thursday, July 29, 2004
Bill Zaladonis
Mr. Zaladonis is from Sanford, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.
"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says
April 13, 2004 USA Today
Steve Hatch
Mr. Hatch served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.
Stephen W. Hatch of Altoona, Pa., with four tattoos, who says he supports Mr. Kerry though he wants no part of politics.
NYTimes Febuary 24 2004
"He wouldn't let you go randomly down the river shooting up everything in sight," says Stephen Hatch, who served on the first of Kerry's two boats.
April 13, 2004 USA Today
Stephen M. Gardner
Served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator John Kerry
"Kerry was chickenshit," he insists. "Whenever a firefight started he always pulled up stakes and got the hell out of Dodge."
"I was driving down the road, and I hit that [radio] button and Rush was talking about Kerry and his campaign and how something just didn't feel right to him," Gardner recalled, his voice full of conviction. "Something about what John Kerry did or was doing, just really didn't set right with him. And you know I served with this guy, and the bottom line to it is; harsh as this may sound or as good as it sounds to any Democrat, out there, John Kerry is another `Slick Willy.' He's another Bill Clinton and that's exactly what he is. And I'm telling you right now, that if John Kerry gets to be president of these United States, it'll be a sorry day in this world for us. We can't stand another Democrat like that in there again. We'll get our asses in such a sling this time; we won't be able to get out of it. And the bottom line to it is, I don't care how much John Kerry's changed after he moved off my boat, his initial patterns of behavior when I met him and served under him was somebody who ran from the enemy, rather than engaged it. If I'd had Rush's 800 number, or known how to reach him, I would have called in."
"I've told a few of my friends that he was an *******," Gardner says. "But I'm not looking to make news."
"Kerry sat some of them down and convinced them to buy into his side of what happened over there,"
"When you're as persuasive as Kerry it's not hard to make a guy change something that he saw."
A recent interview with Gardner is at the Time link. The interview explains why he haven't been heard of until recently. All of the Gardner quotes are here and more.
The author of the Time article states that he believes Gardner's motives are political, and after reading what he had to say I'm inclined to agree.
Source:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/pri...,599034,00.html |
It looks like you've been misinformed, Plato. There's only one guy of the 9 who are alive that has anything bad to say about Kerry's service and doesn't support his candidacy.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:33
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Just to reinforce, from CNN:
quote:
The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. Three veterans on Kerry's boat that day -- Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said the group was lying on all fronts.
They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's account "pure fabrication."
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I'm pretty comfortable in stating that, beyond a doubt, the claims being made by those against Kerry are pure, politically-motivated lies.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
 Finally gone off the deep end?
These are eyewitness accounts.
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Have you read the names, ranks, and service information of many of these individuals? Many of them could not be "eyewitnesses" unless that was a special swift boat with about three times the number of crewmen as every other swift boat in the Navy.
quote:
IIRC that is the pre-eminent type of evidence in any investigation. |
And witnesses who don't come forward for years or decades tend not to have much credibility, especially when contradicted by other witnesses and not corroborated by other evidence.
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The account has the actual person who treated kerry for the wound his first purple heart was given for and the man says Kerry lied.
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And we know this how - because we take him at his word 30 years later? He doesn't have an axe to grind, his conscience is suddenly bothering him?
quote:
Far from being "desperate", this appears to be the truth finally coming out.
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So was it the vast left wing conspiracy that made these people fear for their lives if they told the "truth?" Or is it just a coincidence of being immune from suit, 30 years from any possibility of "real" investigation, and being 12 weeks from election day?
quote:
When you believe the "documented records of the US Navy" that were prepared in the rear |
I'm sure that all immediate AA reports on Kerry and his crew were prepared at CINCPAC in Hawaii, rather than by his immediate CO on a dingy little base on a dingy river in RVN. And of course, due to the vast left wing conspiracy, everyone at the time either corroborated Kerry's outrageous fabrications, or went along with them for 30 years.
Records aren't perfect, they often aren't even very accurate, but they are contemporaneous. There was plenty of reason for some of these people to be pissed at Kerry over VVAW, so why has it taken this long to speak out?
quote:
vs. the actual eyewitness accounts the THAT is a pathetic indication of political hypocrisy.  |
Some of these people have already been proven to have little or no direct contact with Kerry at the time, but if they say they were eyewitnesses, we shouldn't question that. Nope, anybody who claims to be a witness to anything shouldn't have his credibility questioned, even if there's no evidence he was present to be an eyewitness, or if it took him 30 years to suddenly come up with something to say, or if he has a political axe to grind, as McCain has already pointed out.
Last edited by MichaeltheGreat on 06-08-2004 at 01:15
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
I guess that GWB must have hired all these liars from his big oil money to lie for him. I knew this was all part of the vast right wing conspiracy MTG. 
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Or they're politically motivated guys who dislike Kerry because of his VVAW connection, and they have (like 99.999% of the human species) fallible memories which blur perception and observation, first person witnessing and third person hearsay. Or they're lying. Or they're telling the truth, but lied and collaborated with deception 30 years ago, and those other witnesses who dispute their version of events are still lying. Or, or, or...
quote:
Of course while Kerry was exposing the "cowardice' of his fellow soldiers during Senate hearings about 30 years ago the POW's were being shown photos and transcripts of his statements as part of their torture.
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Which speaks to the stupidity of our political process, our protracted involvement in that war, and the conduct of the NV government and communist party.
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I would not follow Kerry into a Mc Donalds let alone into combat. He plays both sides of the fence. He is scum on two feet and I am a Vietnam Veteran.
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So was my brother. He flew in support of Ranch Hand missions and also operated in Cambodia and Laos in support of various ground forces (as a door gunner in a Huey and a Chinook). He also spent plenty of time in free fire zones, and dealing with his Agent Orange and psych issues (AO finally killed him ten years ago), I've dealt with plenty of other Vietnam vets, who have a whole range of opinions and emotions about the war and the way it was fought. Some would / do despise Kerry, some support him. So?
It was a chickenshit war against a chickenshit enemy who routinely violated the laws of land warfare, and willingly and deliberately got civilians ****ed over in the process.
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BTW, I don't doubt that Kerry did show bravery in Vietnam but his betrayal of fellow fighting men still fighting and still being tortured is inexcusable. |
And the flip side of that is that with continued unquestioning acceptance, how much longer would we have spent ****ing around in that cesspool, and how many more KIA would we have taken? Nixon was big on "Vietnamization" when that became convenient, but the fact remained that the ARVN were generally poorly disciplined and unreliable, and they were crushed by the NVA when they didn't have US support. How much further would we have gone?
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Lincoln
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Kerry could have testified truthfully in a private hearing. Anyway, enough said. May the best man win.
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Lincoln
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Right, even if it causes more pain to those undergoing torture so some jack ass wannabe politition can make a name for himself.
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05-08-2004 23:01
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