12-08-2004 10:51									#31
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Kuci:

ambition and intelligence are apples and oranges. Intelligence is a skill. Ambition is the natural order of existance.

	12-08-2004 10:53									#32
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Kuci:

my placing of importance on my existance causes me to wish to not be discomforted and to desire more of those things which are I desire. Therefore, I am ambitious.

anyone who is not ambitious has no self-worth.

	12-08-2004 10:54									#33
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Intelligence is the tendency to be right. Ambition is the tendency to try and improve one's condition. It is not the "natural order" of the universe; it is prevalent only because it leads to its own prevalence. Ambition, like intelligence, can lead to wrong action. Ambition, like intelligence, can lead to right action. Both, however, tend to magnify the effects of that action, which is why we call them virtuous - because they allow for greater good to be done.

	12-08-2004 10:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Ted: the morality of the action is irrelevant to the morality of the motivational emotion. **** Kant

Having a motivation to kill a bunch of people is generally immoral. duh

Ted Striker

	12-08-2004 10:55									#35
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quote: Ambition is the tendency to try and improve one's condition.

and what organism on the planet does not have ambition?

	12-08-2004 10:55									#36
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Actually, having the motivation is not immoral. Acting upon it is.

	12-08-2004 10:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and what organism on the planet does not have ambition?

See above re: prevalence.

	12-08-2004 10:56									#38
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I am surprised to find that Ted Striker has a Kantian sense of morality... who would have figured?

What is the universal maxim of "I'd Hit It"?

	12-08-2004 10:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Kuci: my placing of importance on my existance causes me to wish to not be discomforted and to desire more of those things which are I desire. Therefore, I am ambitious. anyone who is not ambitious has no self-worth.

Rather, anyone who is not ambitious has exactly as much self-worth as their present condition.

	12-08-2004 10:59									#40
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quote: It is not the "natural order" of the universe; it is prevalent only because it leads to its own prevalence.

the alternative being a sacrificialism? Only lemmings exhibit such behaviour.

and as there is a lack of a viable alternative to ambition, it can be therefore assumed that ambition is the natural order of life.

	12-08-2004 11:00									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I am surprised to find that Ted Striker has a Kantian sense of morality... who would have figured? What is the universal maxim of "I'd Hit It"?

Nice try. But that's where you guys are getting it wrong.


Ambition without follow up action fails to be ambition in the first place. Without the followup action it is nothing more than wishful thinking.


"I'd hit it," isn't ambitious. It's just a natural biological reaction to finding someone attactive.

	12-08-2004 11:01									#42
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What do you mean, alternative? It's prevalence isn't the natural order; the natural order is it's tendency, by it's nature, to become so.

	12-08-2004 11:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Boredom is discontent with one's present condition, but not through pain, merely lack of stimulation. In that, it fuels ambition, as does any form of discontent.

Exactly.
Ambition can result from difficult situations, but ambition that is the result of lack of stimulation changes the course of human history.
If Napoleon just wanted creature comforts he'd have stopped when he had enough for a two car garage, and a barbucue grill.

	12-08-2004 11:04									#44
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I would say the times in my life when I have been the most motivated were the times I was the least content.

	12-08-2004 11:07									#45
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maybe i'm tired (i only slept 4 hours in the past 36) but none of yall are making any sense to me.

communism is said to not work because people are selfish (read ambitious, self-bettering). It is described as a common trait possessed by all but the most indoctrinated human beings. Men like Darwin, Spencer, and Nietzsche claimed this trait of self-concern is also the trait common to all organisms.

but from the posts that everybody in here has made, it seems as though yall see only a few men (Napoleon, Hitler, etc.) as having ambition, as though this trait isnt common to all organisms.

	12-08-2004 11:07									#46
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Of course! Being content is the opposite of being motivated.

	12-08-2004 11:08									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer maybe i'm tired (i only slept 4 hours in the past 36) but none of yall are making any sense to me. communism is said to not work because people are selfish (read ambitious, self-bettering). It is described as a common trait possessed by all but the most indoctrinated human beings. Men like Darwin, Spencer, and Nietzsche claimed this trait of self-concern is also the trait common to all organisms. but from the posts that everybody in here has made, it seems as though yall see only a few men (Napoleon, Hitler, etc.) as having ambition, as though this trait isnt common to all organisms.

We see only some men as a) having ambitions satisfied by "ruling the world" or something as opposed to simple accumulation of luxuries, and b) having the ability to fulfill those ambitions.

	12-08-2004 11:10									#48
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any life which lacks ambition (in a loose definition as a plant's ambition is different from a man's) is not living. It is dead for all practical purposes and will be physically dead shortly. It's cells will not possess the ambition for continual survival and will not break down nutrients.

	12-08-2004 11:11									#49
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Ambition is a meaningless term outside the context of sentient beings.

	12-08-2004 11:12									#50
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why is that? Yes, ambition is synonymous with self-concern yet organisms that are not self-aware are still apparently self-concerned as they still feed and attempt to survive.

maybe i think on a whole different wavelength from yall but isnt ambition instinctual? humans have just imposed certain values upon our instinct for mere survival.

	12-08-2004 11:19									#51
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unless you intend to disprove Darwin or claim that communism is probable, Kuci, I dont see how you can claim that ambition is not a trait common to all life.

	12-08-2004 11:25									#52
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Alright so how does ambition differ from hope and self-preservation?

I'd say self-preservation is more of an instinctual thing

	12-08-2004 11:26									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer unless you intend to disprove Darwin or claim that communism is probable, Kuci, I dont see how you can claim that ambition is not a trait common to all life.

I'm saying that the term ambition is meaningless outside of the context of sentient beings. Ambition implies intention implies sentience. QED.

	12-08-2004 11:31									#54
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ambition doesn't differ from self-preservation or hope. it is just we, as advanced beings, have imposed certain values over and in addition to mere survival. Such values vary between societies and cultures (material wealth, honor, power, offspring, etc.) but they are just additions to the instinctual need to survive. the same drives that cause us to wish to survive cause us to seek those values which our culture (or ourselves) have deemed of concern.

	12-08-2004 11:33									#55
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Examples used are just that: examples. People we all know.
I don't want to be an organism that claims ambition because I want to survive. I have survived because I worked at it.
And I've gone beyond survival. I have ambition because I want more, notneed more.
I relate to Hal in the above mentioned Shkspr plays because I identify with him: the desire to want more fuels ambition. But that desire comes from boredom with what one has (assuming survival is assured).
Plankton may not realise they want to survive, but they strive for it. I used Napoleon and Prince Hal, as we know them from history and plays, as examples of plankton that got up and said, "I survived, now I'm bored and want more."

	12-08-2004 11:33									#56
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Kuci:

quote: Ambition implies intention implies sentience.

single-celled organisms eat and excrete wastes. why would they do such things if they didnt possess the instinctual intention to survive?

	12-08-2004 11:35									#57
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Aramis:

but there is no difference between self-preservation/concern and ambition! they are different terms for the same definiton!

mere survival is only the first step in ambition/self-preservation/self-concern.

	12-08-2004 11:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer ambition doesn't differ from self-preservation

Self-preservation is survival.
Ambition is wanting more than that.

	12-08-2004 11:46									#59
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will to power ----> self-concern ----> self-preservation ----> ambition ----> fulfilment of desires and formation of new desires

	12-08-2004 11:52									#60
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No, that's completely wrong. One can preserve oneself without fulfilling one's ambitions.