12-08-2004 06:07									#1
	Is ambition a virtue? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've been wanting to start a thread on this for some time. I can see why people would want to be ambitious, to strive for a better job, bigger house, and all that, but where does it get you? What good is it to work so hard for these things and then be unable to enjoy them? Wouldn't it be better to take a step back and give up some of these things to enjoy these pleasures while you can?

I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks.

	12-08-2004 06:11									#2
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No, ambition is stupid.

	12-08-2004 06:13									#3
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Depends. A healthy amount of ambition is a good thing. Unchecked ambition that makes you do things that are morally wrong in your quest for success is not.

	12-08-2004 06:20									#4
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Is purple a fruit?

	12-08-2004 06:24									#5
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yes! but I don't possess it

	12-08-2004 06:26									#6
	Re: Is ambition a virtue? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I've been wanting to start a thread on this for some time. I can see why people would want to be ambitious, to strive for a better job, bigger house, and all that, but where does it get you? What good is it to work so hard for these things and then be unable to enjoy them? Wouldn't it be better to take a step back and give up some of these things to enjoy these pleasures while you can? I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks.

it seems useless in the modern age because of stress and all that. But Would we have all the inventions we have today without ambition? electricity, automobiles, indoor plumbing.

ambition

	12-08-2004 06:26									#7
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quote: A healthy amount of ambition is a good thing.

So what do you consider a healthy amount of ambition?

	12-08-2004 06:28									#8
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quote: Would we have all the inventions we have today without ambition? electricity, automobiles, indoor plumbing.

Can you name the inventors of these? Seems to me most of these folks did these things not for personal glory, but for the betterment of others. Can this really be seen as ambitious, if you don't take the credit for the work?

	12-08-2004 06:30									#9
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trust me, they did it for personal glory.

	12-08-2004 07:05									#10
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Yes! Ambition is healthy and helps one strive for a better life.

The only point where it becomes unhealthy is when it is as strong as to make you do morally wrong things.

	12-08-2004 07:10									#11
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or severely ruin your health (although some risk of health is sometimes needed for certain professions as in astronauts and such)

	12-08-2004 07:18									#12
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Why exist if you don't want to be the best at everything? I accept that I fall short in areas, but I'm young, and I expect to improve. Maybe I won't get to the top. Pretty likely. But why not try? Why live a life where you're continually mailing it in? Luckily I'm in a profession (law) that rewards excellence, so the harder I work the better I am. If I had an Office Space job, then I can see not giving a rat's ass about anything.

Ambition does need to be checked, an out of control ego is dangerous. A little moral backbone and perspective and you'll be ok.

	12-08-2004 07:35									#13
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Ambition = going after the goals you have set yourself. This is generally good. The goals you set for yourself are where potential problems lay, though.

If you measure your success by money alone, then you will most likely end up rich. Unhappy, but rich.

	12-08-2004 07:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Ambition = going after the goals you have set yourself. This is generally good. The goals you set for yourself are where potential problems lay, though. If you measure your success by money alone, then you will most likely end up rich. Unhappy, but rich.

	12-08-2004 08:16									#15
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There are different types of ambition. I have no respect for an artist without any ambition at all.

	12-08-2004 08:32									#16
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Ambition is not a virtue

It can be used for both good and bad



Hitler was one of the most ambitious people ever to walk the face of the earth. But his ambition resulted mostly in evil and destructive acts.


Ted wins Gold Medal for the first Hitler reference.

	12-08-2004 08:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Ambition = going after the goals you have set yourself. This is generally good. The goals you set for yourself are where potential problems lay, though. If you measure your success by money alone, then you will most likely end up rich. Unhappy, but rich.

Meh I could be unhappy and poor if I wanted to be

	12-08-2004 09:20									#18
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Ambition twistes the face and makes people look like conditioned frankesteins with the neurotic smiles of a paranoid clown. In this aspect it is an aesthetic liability.

	12-08-2004 10:00									#19
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Ambition is intellectual boredom. Read Shakespear's Henry IV, Part Two and Henry V . Prince Hal suffers from a severe case of intellectual boredom in IV/2. He has little to do and little to account for. So engages in pranks and highway robberies: he's playing games to pass the time. He's king in HV and channels that gameplaying into ambition. It's the gameplaying of his current role as king.
I don't think ambition could exist w/out boredom. I know the basic human desire for food, shelter and clothing also drive ambition, but those who have strived the highest did not lack those things. I don't support CEOs who rape stockholders, I don't support middle managers who trod all over their underlings, I don't support politicians who gladhand with a smile and then thrust a knife in the back. They disgust me.
But I can turn off that moralising and see them for what they are: the intellectually bored. The Prince Hals.
I'm not knocking intellectual boredom or ambition. Not everyone has bad traits. Great things come from them.
But in the end, ambition (beyond disadvantage) is intellectual boredom.

	12-08-2004 10:28									#20
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i dont understand yall people. How the hell could ambition be anything but a positive? It is the driving force in humanity that has allowed us to raise ourselves up from mere animals. Anyone who is not ambitious is less of a human.

	12-08-2004 10:31									#21
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Nazis had an ambition to kill all the Jews.

How is that positive?

	12-08-2004 10:32									#22
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Less Jews?

	12-08-2004 10:34									#23
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Yes.

	12-08-2004 10:35									#24
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omg

	12-08-2004 10:37									#25
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Even I feel a bit guilty after that one, and that's saying something...

	12-08-2004 10:42									#26
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Ted:

the morality of the action is irrelevant to the morality of the motivational emotion.

**** Kant

	12-08-2004 10:45									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i dont understand yall people. How the hell could ambition be anything but a positive? It is the driving force in humanity that has allowed us to raise ourselves up from mere animals. Anyone who is not ambitious is less of a human.

It is positive, in general. That it has been abused, history leaves no doubt. But what is the driving force behind ambition,when necessity is not the issue ?
Boredom. The desire to be doing something. Specifically the desire to be doing something that is advantageous to the individual. Many times, this can be advantageous to everyone,or to a specific group, like a family. so it is good. Sometimes only one or a few a__holes benefit at a great cost to the many. That is not good.
Ambition is good.
Boredom fuels ambition.
Result: usually good; sometimes not.

	12-08-2004 10:48									#28
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A virtue? Is intelligence a virtue? Intelligence can be used to do evil, but that does not make intelligence any less virtuous. Ambition is simply a form of energy that can be directed to good use. In that, it is as virtuous as any skill.

	12-08-2004 10:49									#29
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boredom doesnt fuel ambition... ambition is the natural extension of individual awareness... there is a struggle of survival and my awareness of my existence and my placing of importance on my existance causes me to be ambitious.

where do you get this boredom thing from?

	12-08-2004 10:50									#30
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Boredom is discontent with one's present condition, but not through pain, merely lack of stimulation. In that, it fuels ambition, as does any form of discontent.