13-08-2004 18:58									#91
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am·bi·tion n.

1. a. An eager or strong desire to achieve something, such as fame or power.
b. The object or goal desired
2. Desire for exertion or activity; energy

de·sire (the noun)

1. A wish or longing.
2. A request or petition.
3. The object of longing.
4. Sexual appetite; passion

Plants do not have desires. Nor ambitions.

	13-08-2004 19:04									#92
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plants have the desire to live. if they did not, then would they live?

	13-08-2004 19:08									#93
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Plants do not have conciousness. They live not because they desire to live. Just like that stone. It is there not because it wants to be there. It is just there.

	13-08-2004 19:11									#94
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a plants continues to photosynthesize despite having no drive to live? why?

	13-08-2004 19:17									#95
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It's a long story. You've heard the evolution theory right?

	13-08-2004 19:24									#96
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survival is a desired goal
desired goals are ambitions
survival is an ambition

	14-08-2004 09:47									#97
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Survival is not a goal. A goal requires a conscious decision. I don't think you need to ask yourself, "Do I need to survive?" when you take every breath. It happens automatically. It's the same way plants conduct photosynthesis.

	14-08-2004 10:16									#98
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i get attacked by someone out to kill me. I run. Survival is my goal.

gazelle being stalked by lions... the lions attack, the gazelle run. Survival is their goal.

survival doesnt have to be as involuntary as breathing.

	14-08-2004 10:45									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i get attacked by someone out to kill me. I run. Survival is my goal. gazelle being stalked by lions... the lions attack, the gazelle run. Survival is their goal. survival doesnt have to be as involuntary as breathing.

A gazelle does not have any conscious decision making abilities. Thus, survival is not a goal.

I doubt that you would just stand there and decide whether you want to survive first before you run, either.

	15-08-2004 03:30									#100
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quote: I don't think ambition could exist w/out boredom. I know the basic human desire for food, shelter and clothing also drive ambition, but those who have strived the highest did not lack those things.

Right, but what about someone in the middle? Their ambition might be for some rather staid goals like a house and a car to support a family.

I don't think they are bored with nothing to do but strive for something else.

	15-08-2004 03:32									#101
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quote: How the hell could ambition be anything but a positive? It is the driving force in humanity that has allowed us to raise ourselves up from mere animals. Anyone who is not ambitious is less of a human.

I think there is something to be said for the person who is content regardless of his state.

Such a rare thing nowadays.

	15-08-2004 03:33									#102
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I am pretty ambitious, I am not pleased about it, but that green eyed monster can be a pretty powerful thing. As I've said, I've got what I wanted a year ago, now I want more...you can't win...

So no, it isn't a virtue, more a curse - never to be content with what you have.

	15-08-2004 03:37									#103
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Provost:

Yeah, that worries me too.

I don't have much now, in material things, but I'm certainly rich in other ways. I'd hate to go the other way, in trying to provide for myself and those I care about, to lose sight of why I did these things in the first place.

	15-08-2004 03:39									#104
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quote: ambition is instrinsic to all life.

Albert:

For people, I can see that.

And so is sin, but we don't call that virtue.

One could make the arguement that Virtue is that which is not intrinsic to the human person, but must be attained through other means.

	15-08-2004 03:42									#105
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quote: It's not universal. It's a trait that different people possess different amount.

But is there anyone wholly absent of ambition?

	16-08-2004 10:50									#106
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quote: I think there is something to be said for the person who is content regardless of his state.

and what is that something? that he is lazy, has no reason to live, etc.? i see nothing good in someone who is complacent.

	16-08-2004 20:01									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One could make the arguement that Virtue is that which is not intrinsic to the human person, but must be attained through other means.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But is there anyone wholly absent of ambition?

By definition you must have a strong desire to your goal for it to be called ambition. I'm sure some people do not have very strong desires whatsoever. Also, I do not believe all kind of desires can be classified as goals of somebody's ambition. Like I desire love, but I would not call it ambition.

	16-08-2004 21:10									#108
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quote: and what is that something? that he is lazy, has no reason to live, etc.? i see nothing good in someone who is complacent.

One can be content, without being complacent. In fact, in being content, one already possesses a reason to live beyond their current circumstances.

In fact, one could say that if one has a reason to live, that you would expect them to be content. Lack of contentment would seem to indicate lacking a reason to live.

There are many ways to be active, yet not ambitious, to do things not for your own advancement but for others. It's not simply labelling those people lazy.

	16-08-2004 21:14									#109
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quote: Also, I do not believe all kind of desires can be classified as goals of somebody's ambition. Like I desire love, but I would not call it ambition.

Yes, and I think that's the problem that Albert is having. Ambition in the sense that I mean is for personal advancement, and love would be something quite different.

You love someone not for your own good, but because you care about them. Although it is true, that ideally, you should end up better off for loving someone.