12-08-2004 11:52									#61
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I'd consider will to power as a part of ambition.
Other than that, agreed.

It's late here. Goodnight

	12-08-2004 11:54									#62
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the initial ambition is mere survival though. Once that is achieved, new desires are formed to be achieved and so on.

	12-08-2004 11:54									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer single-celled organisms eat and excrete wastes. why would they do such things if they didnt possess the instinctual intention to survive?

Because its a natural consequence of physical laws acting on subatomic particles - it's an emergent behavior of those particles. However, unless you're willing to say that a planet has the intention to orbit a star, then intention must be limited to sentient beings.

	12-08-2004 12:00									#64
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quote: Because its a natural consequence of physical laws acting on subatomic particles - it's an emergent behavior of those particles. However, unless you're willing to say that a planet has the intention to orbit a star, then intention must be limited to sentient beings.

homeostasis is a bit more than physical laws acting on subatomic particles... planets (though that whole Gaia hypothesis would differ) do not possess a state of homeostasis per se so your comparison isnt valid.

	12-08-2004 12:06									#65
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quote: homeostasis is a bit more than physical laws acting on subatomic particles...

No it isn't.

	12-08-2004 12:24									#66
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ah... all organisms possess the instinct to sustain an equilibrium. As the equilibrium, so to speak, of mere survival is achieved, changes only occur as responses to feedback. Positive feedback allows (not using the right terminology I'm sure) for changes that may alter the previous equilibrium or cause divergences from it.

sentience is only a higher level of homeostasis, possessing an equilibrium, the result of divergences brought on by responding to positive feedback, beyond mere survival... the new equilibrium is the fulfillment of 'desires' which are but the sentient equivalent to the physical needs of primitive homeostasis seen in non-sentient life.

	12-08-2004 12:57									#67
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I don't actually think it is a virtue, but then do we define virtue? We can be utilitarian and judge it by conseqeunce, or I can merely give my own view. I'll do both .

The former is difficult to judge. Ambition leads to new technology, achievements, exploration etc, but it also leads to wars and people seeking to impose themselves on others. Some might say it could lead to the eventual and woefully ironic destruction of the human race. The jury's out.

I see it as not good for me because I would rather live in the moment (non permanence, Platonic idealism) than ruin it with anticipation. But whatever floats your boat...

	12-08-2004 13:03									#68
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Too tired to be arsed to read the all the posts, but no, ambition isn't a virtue for a couple of reasons.

1. virtues are wholly good in and of themselves, ambition is not.

2. virtues work in accordance with making you a better person or performing virtuous acts. Having a better job or a bigger house neither makes you a virtuous person, or could be considered as virtuous acts.


ambition just doesn't lend itself to virtue.

	12-08-2004 13:26									#69
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quote: Having a better job or a bigger house neither makes you a virtuous person, or could be considered as virtuous acts.

why cant you just say that which is virtuous (ie- moral) is that which is of the most utility. Having a better job is of greater utility than having a worse job so therefore, having a better job is more virtuous than having a worse job.

i still think ambition is just another term for the will to power, the instrinct self-interest of all life.

	12-08-2004 13:28									#70
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utility is the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people...one person having a big house doesn't qualify

	12-08-2004 13:36									#71
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utility is the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people involved... in this case, one. no smilie

	12-08-2004 18:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and what organism on the planet does not have ambition?

Panda Bears. These things are too lazy to even **** and reproduce.

	12-08-2004 18:51									#73
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quote: Depends. A healthy amount of ambition is a good thing. Unchecked ambition that makes you do things that are morally wrong in your quest for success is not.

	12-08-2004 19:18									#74
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Ambition is neither a vice nor a virtue. It can lead to either.

Another way of looking at it - ambition is the thirst for change.

There's change for the worse, and change for the better.

	12-08-2004 19:34									#75
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Ambition is not an instinct like self-preservation. Ambition is rooted from discontent. There are people who are more ambitious and there are people who are more laid back. Also ambition doesn't necessarily mean unhappiness. Some people draw happiness through ambitiously persuing a new goal. It's not universal. It's a trait that different people possess different amount.

Morality concerns whether it is good toward the others, not the self. In this sense, ambition is neither a virtue or a vice. Some people's ambition may lead to improvement of the others, but the opposite is equally likely to happen.

	12-08-2004 23:48									#76
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Speer...that is a woefully inaccurate assessment of the principle of utility

	13-08-2004 04:45									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Can you name the inventors of these?

Ben Franklin, Karl Benz, and John Crapper

	13-08-2004 09:13									#78
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kaak:

Bentham's Hedonic calculus only applies to the parties involved. if that is a woefully inaccurate assessment of the principle of utility, you should take it up with Dr. Bentham's mummy.

	13-08-2004 09:16									#79
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utility by definition can't be applied to one person, or even a small group of people.

	13-08-2004 09:16									#80
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St. Leo:

quote: Karl Benz

Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach could also lay a legit claim on inventing the internal combustion engine automobile.

	13-08-2004 09:17									#81
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what if your ambition isnt for money and posessions?

	13-08-2004 09:18									#82
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Kaak:

if we're talking about Mill, this could be different but Bentham made it clear only those parties involved were of consequence. A man named Fazid in Pakistan is not effected by any decision I make so his happiness is not of concern in any hedonic calculus table.

	13-08-2004 09:23									#83
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MRT:

quote: what if your ambition isnt for money and posessions?

why does this change anything? besides material wealth (which itself varies... ancient mediterrenean societies often measured wealth in cattle, for example), power (which can be as clear as military power to as abstract as popularity), honor, and offspring are the most common highest values in societies.


but once again, what is this whole ambition is a trait some people have thing? I dont get this. It is tantamount to declaring that communism will work.

	13-08-2004 09:27									#84
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albert, what if your ambition in life is to paint pretty pictures?

	13-08-2004 09:31									#85
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like i said... there are a 6 billion high values in the world right now. Material wealth, power, honour, and offspring have just been the most common.

each individual possesses an intrinsic will to power (read ambition). He will strive to achieve whatever he wishes to achieve. EVERY organism on the planet has this ambition or else it simply does not live.

this is really bothering me how i cant get my mind around what the hell yall are talking about. How can some people not have ambition? Yes, in colloquial speech, you say a lazy person has no ambition or even someone who values something stupid has no ambition, yet this is a philosophical debate concerning absolute values (virtue) so this colloquialism is irrelevent. ambition is instrinsic to all life.

	13-08-2004 09:32									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Too tired to be arsed to read the all the posts, but no, ambition isn't a virtue for a couple of reasons. 1. virtues are wholly good in and of themselves, ambition is not. 2. virtues work in accordance with making you a better person or performing virtuous acts. Having a better job or a bigger house neither makes you a virtuous person, or could be considered as virtuous acts. ambition just doesn't lend itself to virtue.

Well said.

	13-08-2004 14:54									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and what organism on the planet does not have ambition?

Only humans have ambition.

	13-08-2004 14:58									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer any life which lacks ambition (in a loose definition as a plant's ambition is different from a man's) is not living.

Ambition is not the only driving force there is.

Curiosity, anger, and a number of other emotions and mental states can drive a person.

	13-08-2004 15:01									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer single-celled organisms eat and excrete wastes. why would they do such things if they didnt possess the instinctual intention to survive?

Ambition is not a survival instinct. Ambition is a driving urge to achieve a goal or objective (no, staying alive is not one).

	13-08-2004 18:44									#90
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yes staying alive is one... what is survival but a goal, the first and most immediate goal?

quote: Curiosity, anger, and a number of other emotions and mental states can drive a person.

Curiosity... ambition to obtain knowledge. Anger... an ambition to rectify a percieved wrong or to impose your own will...