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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
The Canadians could do a seaborne resupply just as well as the Danes. They both have icebreakers; the Canadian ones simply aren't armed. Armaments are moot in the face of airpower in this case. |
Read the whole thread.
Only the coast guard has ice breakers, the Canadian Navy does not. Furthermore, due to budget cutbacks, the coast guard can only operate those ice breakers for a short period of the year.
And again, and again, and again, there's not going to be fighting, so airpower is worthless. Its not going to happen, the Canadian Government says its not going to happen, get it through your head.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
The Danes haven't made a claim. They simply haven't recognized Canada's claim. |
Kuci, you need to start reading:
quote:
"In our opinion Hans Island is part of Danish territory, but the Canadians seem to hold the view the island is theirs," Head of Department of International Public Law at Denmark's Foreign Ministry, Peter Taksoe-Jensen, told Reuters on Wednesday. |
http://home.eircom.net/content/reut...?view=Eircomnet
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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Kuci, Krazy is wrong. He knows he's wrong, he was just purposely being an ass at the end. Don't mimic his arguments because it shows how ill informed you are.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Read the whole thread. |
I've been reading it.
quote:
Only the coast guard has ice breakers, the Canadian Navy does not. |
Maybe... the navy could... you know... borrow them? 
quote:
And again, and again, and again, there's not going to be fighting, so airpower is worthless. Its not going to happen, the Canadian Government says its not going to happen, get it through your head. |
If there isn't going to be fighting, then armed icebreakers are worthless too! |
Ok, think of it this way. Stationing an unarmed CG vessel by the island makes about as much of a point as sending up a rowboat. Flying jets by the island, which aren't going to shoot, send zero message other than that Canada has planes, which everyone knows already. Paradropping troops on the island is confrontational, especially since both sides claim the Island, so its not going to happen.
Sending an armed, ice breaking frigate to the waters surrounding the Island, like the Danes have done, allows Canada to maintain a large, strong, long term presence in the area, without actually going as far as starting a conflict because there isn't going to be a war.
This is precisely why the Gov. of Canada has tentative plans to send up a Frigate with a crew of 200 so they can conduct military exercises in the area, and prove to the world that Canada can, in fact, exercise sovereignty over land we supposedly claim as our own.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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Basically, the formula is this: Power + Longterm - confrontational = we own this place and are friendly and non-aggressive.
Planes are not longterm (couple of minutes), and paradropping troops is confrontational.
Edit: Look up what gunboat diplomacy means.
Last edited by JimmyCracksCorn on 15-08-2004 at 23:48
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Maybe... the navy could... you know... borrow them? |
Borrowing costs money, which we don't have... at least allocated towards defence.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Ok, think of it this way. Stationing an unarmed CG vessel by the island makes about as much of a point as sending up a rowboat.
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Fine, so Canada can send an icebreaker to clear a channel and one of the Halifax frigates can follow behind it. Happy now.
The idea of building ice-breaking frigates for the RCN is crazy. It would be a complete waste of money and it would reduce the ship's operational abilities. There is no need for Cdn navy frigates to have icebreaking capabilities because we have purpose-designed icebreakers.
Denmark does not have icebreakers and that's why their frigates have limited ice-breaking capabilities.
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Flying jets by the island, which aren't going to shoot, send zero message other than that Canada has planes, which everyone knows already. Paradropping troops on the island is confrontational, especially since both sides claim the Island, so its not going to happen.
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So sending a warship, which isn't going to shoot anything, to Hans Island is not confrontational, transporting troops by sea and landing them on a Canadian island is not confrontation, but air-dropping troops, who would not going to shoot anything, is confrontational? Lovely logic.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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By the way JCC, if you want to be a Canadian, you'll have to start talking hockey.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
Ok, think of it this way. Stationing an unarmed CG vessel by the island makes about as much of a point as sending up a rowboat. Flying jets by the island, which aren't going to shoot, send zero message other than that Canada has planes, which everyone knows already. Paradropping troops on the island is confrontational, especially since both sides claim the Island, so its not going to happen.
Sending an armed, ice breaking frigate to the waters surrounding the Island, like the Danes have done, allows Canada to maintain a large, strong, long term presence in the area, without actually going as far as starting a conflict because there isn't going to be a war.
This is precisely why the Gov. of Canada has tentative plans to send up a Frigate with a crew of 200 so they can conduct military exercises in the area, and prove to the world that Canada can, in fact, exercise sovereignty over land we supposedly claim as our own. |
I don't think you quite understand the concept of sending planes there...
for one, you can have regular patrols. I'm sure at least some of your planes patrol regularly; have them fly around the island. Long-term presence.
Moreover, simply having planes within striking distance of the island, on short notice, is a long-term presence.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
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All right, true, the Danish Navy has some coastal icebreakers.
My point is that Canada doesn't need frigates with ice-breaking abilities because we have purpose-built ice-breakers.
I assume that the Danish Navy has ice-strenghtened ships because they don't have access to the same level of purpose-built ice-breakers.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I don't think you quite understand the concept of sending planes there...
for one, you can have regular patrols. I'm sure at least some of your planes patrol regularly; have them fly around the island. Long-term presence.
Moreover, simply having planes within striking distance of the island, on short notice, is a long-term presence. |
I don't think you understand the concepts at play with this dispute. How is sending planes going to reassert sovereignty to a bunch of Greenlandic Inuit, who are the only ones who actually, and occassionally, use the place.
The point is, sending a Naval presence up there is the best solution to this problem. Denmark realizes this, the Government of Canada realizes this, pretty much every major Canadian news publication realizes this - why can't you?
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai The idea of building ice-breaking frigates for the RCN is crazy. It would be a complete waste of money and it would reduce the ship's operational abilities. There is no need for Cdn navy frigates to have icebreaking capabilities because we have purpose-designed icebreakers. |
True, but the point of all this is to set precedent. Hans Island could be just the beginning of Canadian claims being challenged over its Arctic Territories, especially with undefined and questionable boundaries existing between Canada and Russia, Denmark and the United States. Canada needs to send the message that it can access its territory by land, air and sea. Furthermore, if what you are saying is true, and Canada is already capable of making and maintaining claims over the arctic, then there shouldn't be a problem, yet clearly there is - why is that?
quote:
By the way JCC, if you want to be a Canadian, you'll have to start talking hockey. |
Hockey sucks  
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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JCC don't you think your point is getting a bit tired?
Canada could get its navy up there if it wanted to by bringing along icebreakers and I suspect ( have not checked this) that the Canadian purpose built icebreakers could go further north and stay longer in more adverse conditions than Danish Ice strengthened warships.
Also you have completely failed to show how a demonstration of force by a warship is superior to the presence of a ship (say an icebreaker) and armed forces ( land or air). You keep saying nobody is going to fight but then discount any unarmed ship
As for the rest of the north, both the Inuit who have signed dozens of agreements with Canada, and the oil companies that have paid Canada millions for oil exploration rights, would be suprised to hear that Canada does not exert soveriegnty. Canada does so with every dollar it spends and nobody else is doing anything up north except to sail a ship through there-- That may hurt any claim to controlling navigation but does nothing with regard to ownership of the shelf resources. Who would challenge us up north, Russia?? The natives won't want the US LOL.
As for Hans island, who really cares except to the extent it influences other borders. its not like you can do anything with it anyway
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15-08-2004 22:41
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