12-08-2004 23:18									#1
	Who owns Hans Island? Increase Your PM Length

Some of you may already be familiar with this, but Canada and Denmark have both claimed sovereignty over the very tiny Hand Island between the northern tip of Greenland and Baffin Island in the Canadian Arctic. Last year Demark brought a Frigate to the Island and landed troops who raiesed a Danish flag on its frozen soil. I bring this up now because Canadian PM Paul Martin is currently visiting the North partially to reassert Canadian claims to the Arctic.

quote: IQALUIT, Nunavut (CP) - Paul Martin used the rugged Arctic landscape as his backdrop for reaffirming Canada's territorial claim over the North for generations to come. "One of the responsibilities of government is to protect the sovereignty of the land - to ensure that the sovereignty of land is going to be there for generations of Inuit and Canadians to come," the prime minister told residents at a high school gymnasium on Wednesday.

http://www.canada.com/news/national...77-9a3e82d1fa20

The most well known dispute over Canadian territory is Hans Island, as I said before, which Denmark also claims.

quote: The Vikings have returned to Canada and are trying to take over Canadian territory! They have not come in the traditional long-boats, but in a modern, ice-strengthened frigate. This past summer, the Danish government sent the frigate Vaedderen to patrol the waters between the northwest corner of Greenland and Ellesmere Island. The Danes have regularly been sending warships to this area for quite some time now. This year's voyage is notable for where the vessel sailed and what it did. In a dispute of which few Canadians are aware, the governments of Canada and Denmark contest the ownership of Hans Island, a small island located at the northernmost tip of western Greenland. It is a small and almost insignificant island that shows up on few maps. Canada has always maintained that it is Canadian. Because the warship sailed into the disputed waters surrounding the island and may have landed troops on it, the Canadian government took the step of issuing a diplomatic protest to the Danish government. Before Canadians see this as a return of the attacking, pillaging Vikings, the issue needs to be put into perspective. The ownership of the island is a relatively unimportant issue. The island has no resources and is located in one of the most inhospitable regions of the globe. Its most profound impact will be to produce a minor change in the boundary line between Canada and Greenland. Then why worry? The worry arises when considering the broader ramifications of the dispute. First, Canadians need to be concerned about the precedent that will be established by an unfavourable resolution of this dispute. Most Canadians may believe that the territorial integrity of Canada is complete and without challenge. This is not true. There are now two other current boundary disputes (not counting Hans Island) and one potential boundary dispute in the Canadian north. The United States still maintains that the Northwest Passage is an international strait and not internal waters as Canada claims; and the northern maritime boundary between Alaska and Yukon is disputed. The possibility also exists that Canada and Russia may have overlapping claims for the continental shelf in the high Arctic. But since Canada has never bothered to ratify the United Nations Law of the Sea Convention, it has yet to determine the northern limits of its shelf! Thus, it is not yet known if a dispute exists. Given the importance of precedence in international law, the unfavourable settlement to Canadian interests of any of these disputes will have ramifications on the others. If Denmark wins its case, other states may come to regard the Canadian ability to protect its northern interests as weak.

http://www.naval.ca/article/Heubert...he_Vikings.html

I think this is an interesting issue, especially as it concerns Canada's ability to control its northern territories. As is stands now, there isn't much up there to be concerned about, and consequently Canada has little to no ability to not only control but even to monitor what goes on up there. And as many have sugegsted, with a changing climate and the prospects of natural resource discoveries up there, the place might become more hospitable and more profitable to own, which will likely lead to more claims on the territory from countries like Denmark, Russia and the United States (although to a lesser extent). Currently, Canada has no heavy icebreakers in its Navy, and therfore no military access to much of the Arctic, while Denmark has four and can easily access most of it.

Will this lead to a militarization of Canada and the north? I would think that it would have to if Canada is going to assert sovereignty and maintain control of the area, especially as it becomes more lucrative. What does everyone think? And ultimately, who owns Hans Island?

I'd be interested to hear what Danes think about this, as we don't get that point of view in the Canadian media... to me it seems like Denmark has a strong claim...

	12-08-2004 23:38									#2
	RE: Who owns Hans Island? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Han, duh.

	12-08-2004 23:41									#3
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Canada routinely runs soveriegnty patrols with the military and the Canadian Rangers in the high Arctic. I rather doubt it's going to lead to a militarization of the north, but I could potentially see us stepping up the number of patrols.

And what precisely is this strong claim you see on Denmark's part?

	12-08-2004 23:45									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki And what precisely is this strong claim you see on Denmark's part?

Canada has a stronger claim? Why?

Not asking because I'll dispute it, but because I have absolutely no idea how matters like these are settled or who has the strongest claim. I was aware of the border problems, but as usual, technical details aren't too popular in mainstream media. Ah well.

First we take Hans Island

Then we take Toronto!

	12-08-2004 23:47									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Canada routinely runs soveriegnty patrols with the military and the Canadian Rangers in the high Arctic. I rather doubt it's going to lead to a militarization of the north, but I could potentially see us stepping up the number of patrols. And what precisely is this strong claim you see on Denmark's part?

Well, both claims are weak, but Denmark can get there more easily, it seems to be closer to Greenland, and Greenland Inuit regularly use the Island as a lookout point when they are hunting.

The point is, Canada claims it, Denmark claims it and uses it. Plus, Denmark is clearly more willing to exert physical sovereignty over it.

And sovereignty patrols in a dinky coast guard outfit are lame. Canada needs to be able to bring real force up to it (not to fight) if it wants to make any real claim. Currently, we are unable to do so.

	12-08-2004 23:48									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Canada has a stronger claim? Why? Not asking because I'll dispute it, but because I have absolutely no idea how matters like these are settled or who has the strongest claim. I was aware of the border problems, but as usual, technical details aren't too popular in mainstream media. Ah well. First we take Hans Island Then we take Toronto!

Honestly, I couldn't say. I just wasn't sure where he got the idea that Denmark had a strong claim. Maybe Denmark does, but I didn't get anything like that from the article.

	12-08-2004 23:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Honestly, I couldn't say. I just wasn't sure where he got the idea that Denmark had a strong claim. Maybe Denmark does, but I didn't get anything like that from the article.

Its not a strong claim, stronger is more accurate, just based on the fact that Danes are the only people who go there.

	12-08-2004 23:56									#8
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I'm pretty sure we could put force up there, we just don't bother. We operate a base on Ellesmere Island, which is just as remote. Frankly, if Denmark wants it that bad, I don't care. The article is right about the precedent, though. Obviously a diplomatic solution would be best.

	12-08-2004 23:58									#9
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I wonder if a Canadian takeover means the Iniut will have to apply for Canadian working visas when they go fishing around Hans Ø

	13-08-2004 00:01									#10
	Re: Who owns Hans Island? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Currently, Canada has no heavy icebreakers in its Navy, and therfore no military access to much of the Arctic, while Denmark has four and can easily access most of it.

I find this incredible that Canada has no icebreakers. Do they simply rely on the United States for these services.

	13-08-2004 00:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I'm pretty sure we could put force up there, we just don't bother. We operate a base on Ellesmere Island, which is just as remote. Frankly, if Denmark wants it that bad, I don't care. The article is right about the precedent, though. Obviously a diplomatic solution would be best.

According to the article, Canada has no ice breakers in its Navy, which makes it very difficult to get up there, while Denmark has four. Like this one:

quote: Even more troubling is the condition of the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) ice-breaking fleet. It is very professional and one of the most highly trained fleets in the world, but it is small, aging and drastically underfunded. Unlike the Danes, none of our naval vessels are ice-strengthened, thus only the Coast Guard's icebreakers can actually voyage to the region surrounding Hans Island. The current inventory of CCG icebreakers are: one heavy - Louis St. Laurent built in 1969 (rebuilt 1988-92); four medium - Pierre Radisson (1978), Sir John Franklin (1979), Des Groseillers (1982), and Henry Larsen (1987). Compounding the limited number of vessels is the fact that the operational budget of these vessels has been continually reduced in the past decade to the point where the Coast Guard cannot operate these vessels all year round.

	13-08-2004 00:04									#12
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Oh, and from a quick Google search, it seems as though the Danish and Canadian visitors to the island have left Gammel Dansk schnapps and whiskey to each other on the island. It's nice to see relations remain amicable.

	13-08-2004 00:40									#13
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It seems to me, if we have 4 ice-breaking warships and the Canadians have none, we should just take over the entire NW Passage and be done with it.

	13-08-2004 00:42									#14
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I own Hans Island.

	13-08-2004 00:54									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It seems to me, if we have 4 ice-breaking warships and the Canadians have none, we should just take over the entire NW Passage and be done with it.

A) We have ice breakers, it's just that our navy doesn't have any heavy ice breakers. Our Coast Guard does, though.

B) While not heavily armed, we've got enough to obliterate your four ice breakers in the NW Passage if we wanted to. It's not the 16th century - you don't need ships to project power.

	13-08-2004 01:06									#16
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A significantly larger number of Danes than Canadians are named Hans (including yours truly), we even had a King in the 1500's named Hans.

So Hans Ø would fit right in with the rest of our empire.

Of course we could always settle the matter in a game of women's curling if you insist on making a fuss about it (and want to preserve your precious coast guard vessels from having serious damage inflicted upon them).

	13-08-2004 01:10									#17
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Women's curling it is! Bring it on, b!tch!

	13-08-2004 01:13									#18
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How about women's nude mud wrestling instead? The TV rights alone would more than compensate the loser for the value of the island.

	13-08-2004 01:19									#19
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As long as it isn't women's nude curling. I seem to recall that our national team skipper isn't exactly built like a 1950's pinup girl.

What's the stake then? I personally think it should be for the entire Arctic area. Remember we already have control of Hans Ø. And our words are backed with icebreaking ships whose names you can't even pronounce!

	13-08-2004 01:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Women's curling it is! Bring it on, b!tch!

Curling

	13-08-2004 01:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Of course we could always settle the matter in a game of women's curling if you insist on making a fuss about it (and want to preserve your precious coast guard vessels from having serious damage inflicted upon them).

Curling !! a game we can actually win!!

Of course why even give you a fair chance-- tell you what, you can have the islands if you can win even 1 game in 5 in either the sport of

a) men's hockey OR
b) women's hockey

	13-08-2004 01:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It seems to me, if we have 4 ice-breaking warships and the Canadians have none, we should just take over the entire NW Passage and be done with it.

nahh-- we would just bombard you with our surplus antique helicopters


Oh and any attempt to develop these areas by anyone brings out the most feared weapon of all-- The Inuit or Innu PROTESTER

	13-08-2004 01:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Winston As long as it isn't women's nude curling. .. .

I don't know---- the nude aspect might increase the interest in the game when the score is 10-2

Plus we have some very cute curlers believe it or not--although the women's junior event might be of the most interest considering the age pf most apolytoners

	13-08-2004 01:42									#24
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Didn't we draw 2-2 in the Men's World Hockey Championships in 2003? At least we're both in the A zone, I'm sure of that.

Now handball, either men's or women's, we could play every day for a year and you wouldn't win once. I remember even Greenland's national team beating the US by a 15 goal margin at last year's Panamerican Ch'ships. Even today, I'm close to falling of my chair just thinking about it.

	13-08-2004 01:45									#25
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Or we could just do lacrosse.

	13-08-2004 01:53									#26
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We could have our respective heads of state battle it out with their handbags, to add a bit of class to the event.

I imagine it could turn quite nasty and personal towards the end. Should be good fun.

	13-08-2004 02:01									#27
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If there's oil there, the terrorists own it, and the USA must invade it. Regime change begins up North!

	13-08-2004 02:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Didn't we draw 2-2 in the Men's World Hockey Championships in 2003? At least we're both in the A zone, I'm sure of that.

Yes you are in the A zone but then again they have expanded that group to 16 teams and here were the final standings of the 2004 Worlds

1 Canada
2 Sweden
3 USA
4 Slovakia
5 Czech Republic
6 Finland
7 Latvia
8 Switzerland
9 Germany
10 Russia
11 Austria
12 Denmark
13 Kazakhstan
14 Ukraine
15 Japan
16 France

Oh and yes there was tie in 2003 similar to our 2004 2-2 tie with Austria in the first game of the event. Neither tie had any impact on the final placings.

Oh and how many Danes don't even make it to the Worlds since they are busy paying in the NHL .. . . . ..?

I think I liked the old format better when it was RR among the best 8 teams in the world. On the other hand, the weaker teams are getting better. There used to be routine 10 goal wins but now they are more competitive and can hold things tighter-- and sometimes with a hot goalie, and if the game doesn't really matter , even steal a tie

	13-08-2004 02:06									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Winston We could have our respective heads of state battle it out with their handbags, to add a bit of class to the event. I imagine it could turn quite nasty and personal towards the end. Should be good fun.

I like it-- I wonder what kind of handbag Paul Martin uses most days?


Seriously-- Liz is kinda old and I can't see her doing much other than her annoying wave

	13-08-2004 02:19									#30
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I believe Paul Martin is partial to Louis Vuitton.