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Antrine
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Alright, we're getting some steam going here, and just when it was getting so boring... gosh! Try playing against AI's that are not experiencing any resource scarcity! Matter of fact remove most resource requirements all together. Radical, um... I preserve the culture of the game by making a resource appear with each of the first ten or so techs. After that, hang on all is plentiful.
Now a little game/culture/design riddle. 
Do you think to routinely hamper AI's with lack of iron or saltpeter and what not. Yet make difficulty settings that simply give the AI's nothing but hoards of cheap units, improvements and first crack at every Major Wonder via reduced production costs and support costs.
Or, drums roll on this one please; actually give the AI's near dead on chance with most resources via plentitude and pre-built road networks? Keeping most everything else equal with for instance, all Wonders made 'small wonders' and no Great Wonders at all?
What is the greater challenge? What gives more game playing satisfaction?
Last edited by Antrine on 18-08-2004 at 12:58
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:34
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I've been getting pissed at the lack of resources in my current games. So I decided to boost the seed to 100 (in the map set up screen for a new game).
It seems to be working. check this out. Yeah I know it doesn't make strategic resources very strategic. But iron is far too important. I have had 4 games in a row where I did not have iron (all losses). I've had enough. Even this game I barely got iron (by building on that other island).
the first one is of my territory (hittites)
 Attachment: civ3screenie6.jpg
This has been downloaded 133 time(s).
Last edited by Dis on 19-08-2004 at 08:16
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Antrine
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Scarcity is an interesting game issue to debate and fortunately the game editor makes it a even more interesting debate.
Does scarcity lead to or insure a more interesting game?
Are the AI's more interesting when they lack critical resourses?
If you have all the best Great Wonders is that a more interesting game? Or if the AI's beat you to them near every time?
Personally, competing for Great Wonders was always something I detested and am not much interested in. Certainly such competition is gratifying sometimes, but then one player gets more and more and so unerringly dominates, especially if they can rack up two or three Wonders in a row. These things I disliked in CIV II and scarcity by design I would (personally) add to the above list of unlikable items.
Now, having experimented at length using what I consider wonderfully brilliant improvements to CIV III, namely Small Wonders, Improvements with all the editor tags and making maps with massive resources, beefed up terrain tiles layered in by a series of techs, I like this game. AI's can get menacingly powerful with all things being equal (production and unit allocations).
Set to 100? Try 1000 or 900 with a 900 dissappearance ratio to boot. And if using a designed map, pre-build the main road network and Civ starting positions that are each and every one great. I hamper growth by careful regulated control over settlers, which I believe are hands down the most valuable and important unit in the game.
Anyway, I suspect I am rambling, however some of it may be useful to someone.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
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It's cool, Antrine. 
I wish there were more like you testing the boundaries of the game... none of any of us: Apolyton, CFC, RBC, Firaxis, Atari, on and on, know what is really there when you go to the limits. Bizarre, in a way, considering how many hours the world has invested in Civ3... i.e., you know things that the developers do not.
For instance, I consider the AU Mod to be FUNDAMENTALLY better than vanilla... but then, what is there that you have learned that we have not yet incorporated?
Anyway, thank you for your support in the failed Greek effort!! 
Last edited by Theseus on 19-08-2004 at 09:32
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Petrus2
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yes, I know. Those who like to play like Genghis Khan and tend to control half of the landmass anyway, won't suffer resource scarcity, and since it weakens their AI prey and makes further conquest easier, they even love it. Besides, there are even people who love cockroaches. This doesn't mean that all of a sudden they aren't vermin anymore. |
I won't turn this into a flame war. However, the fact that one person does or doesn't like any specific feature doesn't mean those who disagree are wrong. Besides, Firaxis has provided the tool (editor) to make it what you want, so I just don't see how there is any basis for complaint.
And as a note, I am a builder 80% of the time, not a warmonger, so the implied comment about G.Kahn doesn't even apply. My wars are one of three types:
-defensive, i.e. the AI attacks me
-focused offensives to obtain a resource I need (or keep it from an AI culture)
-late game war of elimination to wrap up the game
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Antrine
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Thanks Theseus, those are very generous comments and I appreciate them! 
I know Player 1 has contributed a lot to AU, and of course, with many others, however I am generally more acquainted with his game philosophy via these threads than other worthies.
I have been debating when and where to release my Mod, now titled, Central Seas, which is about controlling the Mediterranean and adjacent seas. Another version titled, Ancient Wars plays more like a Civ/War Game on land and or water, where Central Seas is about controlling all ports in the Central Seas as victor; kind of hybrid victory condition.
In short, the work left is:
Fix up the little icons that display resources in the City screen etc. The sequence is off on some. I did some artwork by hand, however have been too busy to get back to it.
Include more game theme and lore by addressing the following:
Update the techs in the civilopedia.
Update the unit descriptions in the civilopedia
Update the resource descriptions in the civilopedia
Smooth tech transitions in 2nd, 3rd and 4th Ages, which essentially not used but needs to be playable if someone actually gets there. (This will not be easy) but could be a playable fun to go into high tech with some magick still lingering.
I guess that is it, it is mostly just updating information I have memorized or have posted in notes.
Any ideas or interest, please contact. Otherwise, I will of course just keep keeping on with piles of smiles, for it is work of love or fascination anyway and fellowship for same, is always nice as it comes about, like here.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Petrus2
However, the fact that one person does or doesn't like any specific feature doesn't mean those who disagree are wrong. |
It was admitted by the developers to be a bug, not a feature, to begin with. And a poll if it should be removed or kept (in a now shut down restricted forum at CFC) showed a 2:1 vote towards removing. Of course, this is theoretical, since Firaxis abandonned the support for this game now.
quote:
Besides, Firaxis has provided the tool (editor) to make it what you want, so I just don't see how there is any basis for complaint. |
Yes, you can make your resources as scarce as you want. However, the default should be balanced, as it was in Civ3 and PtW.
quote:
And as a note, I am a builder 80% of the time, not a warmonger, so the implied comment about G.Kahn doesn't even apply. My wars are one of three types: |
Let's see...
quote:
-defensive, i.e. the AI attacks me |
granted.
quote:
-focused offensives to obtain a resource I need (or keep it from an AI culture) |
Doesn't surprise me the least. Resource scarcity makes it a war game, and a lousy one I may add.
quote:
-late game war of elimination to wrap up the game |
Genghis Khan. Enough said.
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Petrus2
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Sir Ralph,
Feature, bug, doesn't matter. My point is that I LIKE the current level of resource appearance. I don't ask others to like it. Make it what you want.
You are right, Civ I/II/III, SMAC & SMAX have never been war games. But war, at a strategic level, is part of them.
End game war is not what I'd consider a Genghis Khan strategy! Others may not feel that way; fine. But it is an utterly different thing to early/mid game warmonger than it is to be a builder and then roll the tanks at the end game. Truthfully, I could just shut the game down at that point because I've won, the AI just hasn't realized it. But I like enjoying the fruits of my labor and fighting those wars...although as often as not I don't completely finish, but only go as long as it is still fun and not completely forgone.
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gunkulator
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I agree with Petrus2. I like the current resource scarcity. I'd hardly call PTW and Vanilla balanced since you could pretty much get every resource easily. If you didn't have it, one of your neighbors always did.
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Antrine
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The few, fewer and fewest. With deep respect to all and none. Since these boards reflect the pitiful state of 'Conquest, the unsupported', yet respecting anyone here still posting. It seems players are turning ghosts, specter or heckler.
Sir Ralph, you sound just tad bit hypocritical? That is since you are not playing the game anyway?
At risk of backlash, I so note.
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Antrine
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Gosh Theseus, I am glad your having fun with such a map! However, such a resource deprived map would leave me weeping and then I would take a breath and 'fix' it, before playing on it.
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Antrine
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Excepting ocean, deep deserts, expansive jungles and tundra; on average, my maps have some kind of 'resource' every third tile! Now admittedly this is very 'close' to what I glibly termed 'resource pollution'  , I have adjusted by having the resourses appear in steps via techs, so it actually takes a good while to see them all. Additionally, some are barbed (secret formula ) and all have very high dissappearance settings, though the impact is less than I would like. I give the tiles wide ranges underneath and have made it common to get hit with 'plague' no matter where you place a city. Additionally, some tiles are particullarily dangerous to get 'caught' on in battle. 
Also, all the Capitol pre-start locations (of which there are some 35) the resources are clustered with roads, so the AI's are sure to 'score'  . Suffice it to say, all other settings being near equal, these AI's are always formidable.
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18-08-2004 12:53
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