14-08-2004 09:56									#1
	conquests--unit balance even more absurd? resources? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I just got the conquests and a few things are killing me. First off, did the devs completely ignore the common sense of military units? I just had 2 elite guerrilla units killed by a single regular spearman unit in one turn. WTF?!?!?

Maps....why aren't there any resources? I had a huge map with 6 civs and one coal resource. Considering how well the a.i. system handles trade, that worked out well. You can't get any resources unless you control the entire map, but you can't control the map unless you have the resources to produce better units.

	14-08-2004 10:04									#2
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Unit balance hasn't changed. The RNG's just messing with your mind.

	14-08-2004 22:19									#3
	Re: conquests -- resource scarcity Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Caligo Maps....why aren't there any resources? I had a huge map with 6 civs and one coal resource. Considering how well the a.i. system handles trade, that worked out well. You can't get any resources unless you control the entire map, but you can't control the map unless you have the resources to produce better units.

C3C generates about 1/3 less resources than PTW/Civ3. While many people scream bloody murder about it, many people appreciate (i.e., enjoy) the new scarcity. Not everyone is going to be a "power", and you may have to do some warfare to get "needed" resources.

I suggest you play a few games before you condemn it. After that, if you still cannot tolerate it, go into the editor and multiply the appearance ratios of strategic resources by 1.33. Either save as a scenario or backup the original -- Hall of Fame scores are not stored when played with altered rules.

	14-08-2004 23:07									#4
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Well stated Jaybe.

	15-08-2004 04:51									#5
	Re: Re: conquests -- resource scarcity Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe C3C generates about 1/3 less resources than PTW/Civ3. While many people scream bloody murder about it, many people appreciate (i.e., enjoy) the new scarcity. Not everyone is going to be a "power", and you may have to do some warfare to get "needed" resources. I suggest you play a few games before you condemn it. After that, if you still cannot tolerate it, go into the editor and multiply the appearance ratios of strategic resources by 1.33. Either save as a scenario or backup the original -- Hall of Fame scores are not stored when played with altered rules.

I did not notice this. But it does explain why I've been getting ass ****ed on my resources lately and losing so many monarch games.

I made a thread on this, but I'm still not sure.

What should I set the resource seed to, so I get approx. 1 resource per civilization?

	15-08-2004 07:51									#6
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1.33 times what it is now.

	16-08-2004 04:26									#7
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the default is 0

	16-08-2004 04:48									#8
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So wouldn't 1.33 times 0 still equal 0?

	16-08-2004 05:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the default is 0

Oh, that number. No, the number you should change is the Appearance Ratio for each strategic resource - go ino the editor, go to the natural resources tab, and there it is.

	16-08-2004 20:21									#10
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Hmm, if they did cut the resource appearance by 33%, then you should multiply the current number by 1.5 to get the original value. Mathematically at least, unless their is some other weirdness in the editor/game values.

	16-08-2004 22:03									#11
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Caligo, I actually agree with your opinion completely! However since there a very good and on some accounts great game editor. You can mod to taste. My Assassins (you see I rename a lot) do not die against spearman, but then, I beefed them up a little, .

And I have no resource scarcity issues, none. I beefed it all by hand to about 2000% with pre-built roads so the AI's would not miss getting things.

So what is the problem? It has only taken 10 months to accomplish the wonderful?

	16-08-2004 22:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Petrus2 Hmm, if they did cut the resource appearance by 33%, then you should multiply the current number by 1.5 to get the original value. Mathematically at least, unless their is some other weirdness in the editor/game values.

The cut was determined by experimentation on what seemed a standard map, so it may have been 25% cut, not 33%. I had just quoted the author without studying the results chart. I would have provided the thread link (from Jan-Feb I believe), if I had had the sense to preserve it.

	17-08-2004 00:16									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe I would have provided the thread link (from Jan-Feb I believe), if I had had the sense to preserve it.

heheheh, no worries about going out of your way to find the link. I was really just pointing out you can't cut by a percentage, then raise by the same %, and get the original value.

I gotta admit, I like the reduced incidence of resources. At least the strategic ones, less luxuries isn't as enjoyable. But in a recent game, even though I had about 50% of my continent I had zero iron. Was paying off the Arabs for a supply for a long time until I dealt with the lesser nations near me. Then they got uppity and I had to forcibly remove their iron from their country. Well, I forcibly removed all their cities from their control too

But it was challenging and fun keeping them appeased while I dealt with other problems, knowing that sooner or later, they'd have to pay...

	17-08-2004 05:40									#14
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at least you were able to pay them off. I couldn't secure iron and coal at the same time until 1934! So I couldn't build railroads until 1934. Needless to say I lost the game . See my no iron thread in the general forum.

Now I don't expect it to be in my territory every time. but at least have some fairly close so you can take it by force. In my case the iron was so far away, I would have lost the game trying to get it. I lost anywas, but my point is the lack of iron was a game breaker.

	17-08-2004 15:03									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Petrus2 Hmm, if they did cut the resource appearance by 33%, then you should multiply the current number by 1.5 to get the original value. Mathematically at least, unless their is some other weirdness in the editor/game values.

They cut the resource appearance by 25%. The 33% statement is false. By the way, this was not done by purpose, but is a result of the new bonus resources like sugar and tropical fruit, which take away some slots from the strategical resoures. This hasn't been corrected, which means it is a bug.

You need to multiply everything by 1.33, as was stated correctly. Set all what is now at 160 (all early resources) to 213. Set all what is now 120 to 160. Set Uranium to 140 (not exactly +33%, but 140 gives better results than 133).

Another option is to get rid of Conquests. Ebay is your friend. I hope you got it as best buy. Everything more than $5 is overpaid.

	17-08-2004 17:32									#16
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The 25% cut info clarifies things, thanks. However, there are those of us who like C3C as is, with lower resource incidence and all.

	17-08-2004 19:37									#17
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I for one like the resource cuts. Made the Strategic resources alot more strategic.

	17-08-2004 20:26									#18
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Actually, with the new units and new upgrade paths you can defend adequately without resources ... mostly. You just can't attack for beans unless you use HUGE stacks of arty and guerillas. I was able to survive long enough to win a diplo victory by using the new units (AntiTankInfantry--forget the actual name) and improvements (Civil Defense) to establish a viable defense.

	17-08-2004 20:38									#19
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I always thought the cuts were intentional.

	17-08-2004 20:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Didymus Actually, with the new units and new upgrade paths you can defend adequately without resources ... mostly. You just can't attack for beans unless you use HUGE stacks of arty and guerillas. I was able to survive long enough to win a diplo victory by using the new units (AntiTankInfantry--forget the actual name) and improvements (Civil Defense) to establish a viable defense.

TOW Infantry.

	17-08-2004 21:30									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker TOW Infantry.

Tube-launched, Optically-guided, Wire-controlled missile Great way to even out the battlefield for the infantry!

	17-08-2004 21:50									#22
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Might not have been intentional initally, but it is now, I'm not aware of any plans for a post Conquests 1.22 patch.

Yes, if you want more of any resource that does not have a "0" in apprenance ratio, increase the number.

Note that "0" in that spot (by default luxaries) is a special case for random, so you would not increase luxaries by changing that number from 0 to 1, but would instead make them extremely rare.

	17-08-2004 22:00									#23
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Here's another vote in favor of the current scarcity. In Vanilla and PTW strategic resources were never an issue, which made them worthless additions to the game. In C3C you have to reasses those resources: Do you really need that saltpeter now?

There are two things about resources I'd change though:

First, they should appear in clumps like luxuries. Currently, an AI with an resource will usually never have more than one so no trade.

Second, I'd devalue iron. It's just too important.

	17-08-2004 22:13									#24
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Iron: Remove it as a requirement for everything other than the Ancient Era combat units that need it. So, whether it is pikes, knights, factories or railroads, iron shouldn't be needed. But for creating early iron swords (much better than copper), it SHOULD be needed.

Why? Because historically, once the pioneering technologies matured, it was available practically everywhere. Actually, Aluminum resource more represents a technology than "metals" also. Yes, strategic resources should only be required in the era of its introduction.

	18-08-2004 05:03									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Didymus Actually, with the new units and new upgrade paths you can defend adequately without resources ... mostly. You just can't attack for beans unless you use HUGE stacks of arty and guerillas. I was able to survive long enough to win a diplo victory by using the new units (AntiTankInfantry--forget the actual name) and improvements (Civil Defense) to establish a viable defense.

going from spearman to rifleman is a long gap of vulnerability.

	18-08-2004 05:51									#26
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That's only if you're missing iron AND saltpeter.

And if that's true, well, play as the Greeks

	18-08-2004 07:02									#27
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No, no do not play the Greeks!! My god no, they just lost again and yet again...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...20&goto=newpost

	18-08-2004 08:06									#28
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The AI greeks

	18-08-2004 08:13									#29
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Theseus was the Greek not any AI. And he got his *** kicked.

	18-08-2004 12:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Petrus2 However, there are those of us who like C3C as is, with lower resource incidence and all.

Yes, I know. Those who like to play like Genghis Khan and tend to control half of the landmass anyway, won't suffer resource scarcity, and since it weakens their AI prey and makes further conquest easier, they even love it. Besides, there are even people who love cockroaches. This doesn't mean that all of a sudden they aren't vermin anymore.