16-08-2004 05:13									#151
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Not in countries that abide by human rights. The punishment can't be greater than the crime. Not really. I believe just about every country will fine you for more than you stole. The punishment usually has to have some deterrant effect as well, or else it's useless.

Of course we don't just make thieves give the money back. The stolen money is not the only pain that the criminal caused. It's because of criminals that we have to have so many police and prisons. You have to act in moderation though. And certainly you have to punish humanely.

	16-08-2004 05:31									#152
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

From what little I know of the case, I think the execution was justified.

On a side note, apparently the 83 year old hangman had an emotional breakdown following the hanging, from newspaper reports mainly because it was his last of more than a dozen executions before retirement (a bit strange, since he hasn't had the opportunity to hang anyone for the past 9 years, but anyway). He also noted the condemned man's personal dignity and "bravery" in the face of the gallows as factors in his inability to compose himself. It was reported that he drank himself senseless in the aftermath, and had to be carried into his home on a stretcher by police officers who were called to the tavern where he'd passed out.

Good thing his grandson is ready to take over his position now.

	16-08-2004 05:44									#153
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Of course we don't just make thieves give the money back. The stolen money is not the only pain that the criminal caused. It's because of criminals that we have to have so many police and prisons. You have to act in moderation though. And certainly you have to punish humanely.

Restitution is the pay back of what is stolen. Retribution is the pay back for the harm caused to society. The restitution and retribution deter criminals. Any further deterence is unjustified. That would be like punishing innocent people.

	16-08-2004 09:12									#154
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [q]The punishment usually has to have some deterrant effect as well, or else it's useless. Btw, I have no problem with the Singapore caning. It's ridiculous that Americans go into other counties, do illegal things, and then complain that they are being punished in the way that country punishes criminals.

	16-08-2004 09:28									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Restitution is the pay back of what is stolen. Retribution is the pay back for the harm caused to society. The restitution and retribution deter criminals. Any further deterence is unjustified.

Why? Isn't one purpose of punishing so that others won't do the same crime again? If the crime is shoplifting, the restitution is small and so is the retribution (harm to society is very small for shoplifting, say, a CD). There is no reason why the criminal won't steal again, unless there are extra fines to deter.

	16-08-2004 09:31									#156
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A couple of idle thoughts I've had regarding capital punishment:

1) The family of the murder victim should be the ones to approve the usage of CP. Say the criminal is found guilty. The victim's family decides whether they will accept the prisoner's execution. They relay this info to the judge. The judge then decides whether the criminal gets life imprisonment or the death penalty, but he/she can only sentence to death if the family OKs it.

2) After being convicted of murder, the prisoner's life should be maintained only if they do something while incarcerated that is productive or otherwise leads to the betterment of society. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but they must do this for the rest of their lives or else they'll be executed. This way the prisoner isn't just sitting and rotting for life, but actually making a contribution to the world (even if it's a small one).

	16-08-2004 09:34									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Restitution is the pay back of what is stolen. Retribution is the pay back for the harm caused to society. The restitution and retribution deter criminals. Any further deterence is unjustified. Why? Isn't one purpose of punishing so that others won't do the same crime again? If the crime is shoplifting, the restitution is small and so is the retribution (harm to society is very small for shoplifting, say, a CD). There is no reason why the criminal won't steal again, unless there are extra fines to deter.

Sure it's a purpose, but is it justified? You're using utilitarian ethics. It's not fair to individuals to make them suffer more than they have made others suffer, even if it is better for society.

	16-08-2004 09:40									#158
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Who says fairness is the basis of morality?

	16-08-2004 10:06									#159
	Remove this text

If a rich person steals from a poor one, it's fair for him to repay the amount that was taken and no more. However, this hurts the perp not at all, because he has so much money, therefore simply repaying the amount stolen offers no incentive for him to stop.

It's more than a matter of fairness -- the punishment must deter further occurrences of the crime, while also fiting the crime. So the punishment for theft should fall somewhere between paying back the amount taken and no more, and executing the thief. Exactly where between these two limits is the question.

	16-08-2004 11:27									#160
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Who says fairness is the basis of morality?

You don't?

	16-08-2004 11:28									#161
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ajbera If a rich person steals from a poor one, it's fair for him to repay the amount that was taken and no more. However, this hurts the perp not at all, because he has so much money, therefore simply repaying the amount stolen offers no incentive for him to stop. It's more than a matter of fairness -- the punishment must deter further occurrences of the crime, while also fiting the crime. So the punishment for theft should fall somewhere between paying back the amount taken and no more, and executing the thief. Exactly where between these two limits is the question.

You're misunderstanding fairness and justice.

	16-08-2004 11:32									#162
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by ajbera It's more than a matter of fairness -- the punishment must deter further occurrences of the crime, while also fiting the crime. So the punishment for theft should fall somewhere between paying back the amount taken and no more, and executing the thief. Exactly where between these two limits is the question.

Again. If I steal $5 from you I don't cause you $5 worth of suffering. If you get the $5 back you're still pissed and want me to pay for doing the crime to you. So the punishment has to be more than just giving the $5 back. Neither should the punishment be more than the suffering that I have cuased, because then I'm getting punishment that I don't deserve.

	16-08-2004 11:40									#163
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You're misunderstanding fairness and justice.

He's saying that justice isn't fair. That's what I thought you were saying.

	16-08-2004 11:53									#164
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Was he convicted on DNA evidence ?

	16-08-2004 11:55									#165
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have been following this debate with interest and agree that the purpose of prison and the judical service is two fold: 1) punish 2) rehabilitate.

However, my comment is what happens when a convicted prisoner is beyond rehabilitation? As an example, I was watching Carte Blanche (a South African TV show like 60 minutes) on Sunday night and they where showing a man convicted of 42 counts of Child Rape. He received 42 life sentences plus 60 years (AKA never to be released). For the record, South Africa abolished the Death Penalty at the end of Aparthid (sp?), but public opinion wants it brought back.

I would rather see this person excecuted, preferably as painfully as possible.

Those people who complain that a persons civil rights have been violated by cruel and unusal punishment (death penalty etc etc etc) forget that aside from an indivudals civil rights, they also have civil obiligations, such as adhereing to the laws of the land. When a person breaks the law they have provern themselves beyond the limitations of their society. Whilst I am not advocating the death penalty for speeding, serious crimes such as drug dealing, rape, murder, genocide, torture etc etc should be meet in kind.

Finally, those who view the death penalty as unconstitutional in the States, I believe the US constitution states (to the effect that) cruel and unusual punishments is a big no no, unless due process of law has been followed. Ergo, you can use 'cruel and unusal' punishment provided you have followed due process.

Thumb Screws anyone....?

	16-08-2004 15:12									#166
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

To put the debate into context , I must add that there had not been an execution in India for many years . And that the murder was proven to be his work beyond reasonable doubt .

	16-08-2004 23:25									#167
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Now how do you determine how much punishment is justified?

Generally depends on precedent. If a person was charged with a similar crime, than this person will likely recieve the same punishment not accounting for any factors that may mitigate or intensify the punishment.

	16-08-2004 23:27									#168
	Suffering from ads?

quote: If a rich person steals from a poor one, it's fair for him to repay the amount that was taken and no more. However, this hurts the perp not at all, because he has so much money, therefore simply repaying the amount stolen offers no incentive for him to stop. It's more than a matter of fairness -- the punishment must deter further occurrences of the crime, while also fiting the crime. So the punishment for theft should fall somewhere between paying back the amount taken and no more, and executing the thief. Exactly where between these two limits is the question.

Which is why the Mosaic code specifies a repayment of 5x the amount stolen.

	16-08-2004 23:29									#169
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: However, my comment is what happens when a convicted prisoner is beyond rehabilitation? As an example, I was watching Carte Blanche (a South African TV show like 60 minutes) on Sunday night and they where showing a man convicted of 42 counts of Child Rape. He received 42 life sentences plus 60 years (AKA never to be released). For the record, South Africa abolished the Death Penalty at the end of Aparthid (sp?), but public opinion wants it brought back.

So? How do you know this man is beyond rehabilitation? This is my question from before.

	17-08-2004 00:08									#170
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

My two cents on the caning thing:

Cane the hell out of him, and then shove the cane up his ass. Even though vandalism doesn't impact the victim nearly as much as say, robbery or rape, it's one of the few crimes that just about never has a justification for it other than pure maliciousness. Unless you're quite young or mentally handicapped (both of which should obviously be mitigating factors in trial/sentencing), you always know it's wrong, it's always deliberate is never a matter of self defence and always has an alternative.

	17-08-2004 00:09									#171
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Generally depends on precedent. If a person was charged with a similar crime, than this person will likely recieve the same punishment not accounting for any factors that may mitigate or intensify the punishment.

I know, but this is what I call unfair. Judges punish some people more for doing the same crime. Just because the were caught doing the same crime before. They were already punished for that, and they shouldn't be punished again.

	17-08-2004 00:27									#172
	Support Apolyton

Reading this thread is so depressing. I can't believe how many of you would argue to keep the life of a murderer and a rapist of a 16 year girl. Some said that his right of life shouldn't be taken away. Some said he might not be beyond rehabilitation. Don't you realize that no matter how much he could be rehabilized the young girl is long dead and no matter how many times he is killed he cannot repay the suffer of that young girl? Why what a convenient excuse it is. Anybody could do anything he wants, rape, and kill, and still do not need to pay it off because he has the rights and he could be rehabed.

What is this world coming to?

	17-08-2004 00:30									#173
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Judges punish some people more for doing the same crime. Just because the were caught doing the same crime before. They were already punished for that, and they shouldn't be punished again.

Generally, doing a crime more than once signifies that you are much more responsible than you would be otherwise. A person can commit a crime by accident once, but to do so multiple times is not plausible.

	17-08-2004 00:32									#174
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Reading this thread is so depressing. I can't believe how many of you would argue to keep the life of a murderer and a rapist of a 16 year girl. Some said that his right of life shouldn't be taken away. Some said he might not be beyond rehabilitation. Don't you realize that no matter how much he could be rehabilized the young girl is long dead and no matter how many times he is killed he cannot repay the suffer of that young girl?

Death ends suffering. Would you not want the man to suffer for his crime?

	17-08-2004 00:34									#175
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't want him to suffer for his crime. His suffering means nothing to the little girl. I want him to pay for it. A life to pay for a life.

	17-08-2004 00:37									#176
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I don't want him to suffer for his crime.

I do.

	17-08-2004 00:37									#177
	Increase Your PM Length

Then you should advocate him being raped. And then killed.

	17-08-2004 00:38									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Vicious bastard.

	17-08-2004 00:38									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Then you should advocate him being raped.

I'm in favour of him being imprisoned, am I not?

	17-08-2004 00:40									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You think being imprisoned is a suffering that is similar to being raped and killed? I'm sure many will not agree with you.