18-08-2004 05:04									#1
	Price Gouging - Fair and balanced, or unfair Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/17/c...rges/index.html

im against this law - its the free market at use. the only way to make sure there is enough room for everybody who is willing to pay for it is to charge more, that way people whose homes were most destroyed will get rooms, and those with only slightly damaged homes will not.

	18-08-2004 05:15									#2
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Well part of the complaint is fraud. Lying to customers, even those who HAD reservations at lower prices in order to get them to pay more.

	18-08-2004 05:21									#3
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yes, and thats a breach of contract for those who had reservations at lower prices, but its no price gouging - and of course lying is also fraud. but its not price gouging.

	18-08-2004 05:27									#4
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I'm not a 100% free market guy. But I do believe in capitalism (with regulations)

I'm against price gouging. But I would prefer the matter be settled by the public vs. the gouger in public courts. I don't like seeing the goverment involved in any other way. The goverment should be kept small dammit! Of course no one else agrees with me on this.

	18-08-2004 05:38									#5
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i agree the govt must be kept small.

	18-08-2004 05:41									#6
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Who cares about the consumers anyways?

	18-08-2004 05:45									#7
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i do - unless they complain about dumb things.

	18-08-2004 05:47									#8
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I'm for laws preventing price gouging in declared emergencies like hurricanes and such.

	18-08-2004 05:49									#9
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but thats the thing, its not price gouging - theres a high demand for rooms after said storm, and supply has decreased, so that means higher prices so that the people who really need the rooms can get them. are people here against the free market which has made america the worlds largest economy over the last 50 years?

	18-08-2004 06:05									#10
	Re: Price Gouging - Fair and balanced, or unfair Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/17/c...rges/index.html im against this law - its the free market at use. the only way to make sure there is enough room for everybody who is willing to pay for it is to charge more, that way people whose homes were most destroyed will get rooms, and those with only slightly damaged homes will not.

Aaah, so people's capacity to pay is based on the extent of their home damage? All this time, I thought it related to net income.

And you're right - this is the perfect demonstration of why the liberterarium has no place in the real world. ****ing people over when a hurricane hits.

	18-08-2004 06:05									#11
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Lawrence, I have news for you

The world will not collapse into anarchy if hotel owners are prevented from charging poor displaced people double during emergencies

	18-08-2004 06:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia are people here against the free market which has made america the worlds largest economy over the last 50 years?

You should catch up on your liberterrarium reading. According to the LP, the market isn't free. But yes, I agree we should keep the same regulated market system we have now.

	18-08-2004 06:13									#13
	Re: Re: Price Gouging - Fair and balanced, or unfair Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Aaah, so people's capacity to pay is based on the extent of their home damage? All this time, I thought it related to net income. And you're right - this is the perfect demonstration of why the liberterarium has no place in the real world. ****ing people over when a hurricane hits.

Prices aren't fair in the free market. If you want fair you're advocating the wrong economic system.

	18-08-2004 06:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You should catch up on your liberterrarium reading. According to the LP, the market isn't free. But yes, I agree we should keep the same regulated market system we have now.

You're losing this one to LoA. Capitalism is dependent on price gouging. That's the driving force behind the allocation of resources.

	18-08-2004 06:39									#15
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quote: Capitalism is dependent on price gouging.

The man has a point there.

	18-08-2004 07:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/17/c...rges/index.html im against this law - its the free market at use.

It's only a free market if there's a practically unlimited supply and suppliers compete on price alone.

Otherwise, we are start looking at monopolistic practices.

	18-08-2004 07:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's only a free market if there's a practically unlimited supply and suppliers compete on price alone. Otherwise, we are start looking at monopolistic practices.

No. You can have free markets with monopolistic power. Markets are only planned when there is a third party determining the level of production or the price.

	18-08-2004 07:38									#18
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No, when there's a monopoly or cartel in a market, it's no longer free.

	18-08-2004 07:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No, when there's a monopoly or cartel in a market, it's no longer free.

I've got the Oxford Dictionary of Economics.

You have a point though. If a monoploy or cartel is solid enough it's basically planned, but not by definition.

	18-08-2004 07:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I've got the Oxford Dictionary of Economics. You have a point though. If a monoploy or cartel is solid enough it's basically planned, but not by definition.

And I've got Ricardo

Seriously, even the Neoclassicists agreed that a completely hands-off attitude for the govenment no longer worked, as monopolies (etc.) were appearing in various industries, completely wrecking "The Invisble Hand."

	18-08-2004 07:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger And I've got Ricardo Seriously, even the Neoclassicists agreed that a completely hands-off attitude for the govenment no longer worked, as monopolies (etc.) were appearing in various industries, completely wrecking "The Invisble Hand."

I definitely need a source.

	18-08-2004 07:56									#22
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Monopolies don't wreck the invisible hand in the long term. Of course, you could be talking about the very long term. But eventually someone will acquire enough capital to overthrow the monopoly.

I'm all for anti-trust, though - the alternative is a long and painful process.

	18-08-2004 08:09									#23
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Smith was definitely against anti-trust. I don't know about Ricardo. He was kind of a strange one. I'm curious to know for sure.

	18-08-2004 08:25									#24
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quote: Monopolies don't wreck the invisible hand in the long term. Of course, you could be talking about the very long term. But eventually someone will acquire enough capital to overthrow the monopoly.

Just like those questions for voting aptitude tests would be fair, right?

	18-08-2004 08:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Monopolies don't wreck the invisible hand in the long term. Of course, you could be talking about the very long term. But eventually someone will acquire enough capital to overthrow the monopoly.

First of all, if a market becomes dysfunctional, it loses the power to regulate. That's when the government needs to come in to take up the slack, at the very least.

Secondly, it's extrmely hard to say if somebody would acquire enough capital at an indefinite point in the future. OPEC has been around for ages, and so is de Beers.

	18-08-2004 08:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Just like those questions for voting aptitude tests would be fair, right?

Huh?

It's like evolution - it may take a lot of time for the right circumstances to occur, but the monopoly will eventually be destroyed.

	18-08-2004 08:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger First of all, if a market becomes dysfunctional, it loses the power to regulate. That's when the government needs to come in to take up the slack, at the very least.

But the mainstream theory is that govt regulation causes monopolies. Ricardo assumed perfect copetition in all his theories.

	18-08-2004 09:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger First of all, if a market becomes dysfunctional, it loses the power to regulate. That's when the government needs to come in to take up the slack, at the very least.

The market doesn't become "dysfunctional". It's like evolution. It always happens, but sometimes slowly and with a lot of pain. Evolution always increases the fitness of an organism; the market always increases the fairness (not using Kid's definition here, you understand what I mean by "fair") of the prices. Other circumstances besides the market (natural disasters, new technology, etc) can make things worse for a time, just like climate changes can decrease organisms' fitness for a time.

quote: Secondly, it's extrmely hard to say if somebody would acquire enough capital at an indefinite point in the future. OPEC has been around for ages, and so is de Beers.

OPEC is a multinational organization, not merely some industrial conglomerate. The State (or States) meddling in the market throws all guarantees out the window.

	18-08-2004 12:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Secondly, it's extrmely hard to say if somebody would acquire enough capital at an indefinite point in the future. OPEC has been around for ages, and so is de Beers.

Hmm. This reminds me of the Snowball Earth theory.

750 million years ago, Earth froze over down to the ocean bottoms. By 580 million years ago, enough CO2 had accumulated from volcanic eruptions for Earth to instamelt and go tropical.

	18-08-2004 12:22									#30
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quote: h? It's like evolution - it may take a lot of time for the right circumstances to occur, but the monopoly will eventually be destroyed.

When Whaleboy proposed voter-aptitude tests, you said it would never happen without an ideal situation.

Now you're using an ideal situation to defend monopolies.